Tourney When Is an Absent Player's Hand Dead? (2 Viewers)

At what point should an absent player's hand be killed?

  • If the player is not at the table when the first card is dealt to *anyone* for that hand

  • If the player is not at the table when the first card is dealt to *that player* for that hand

  • If the player is not at the table when the second card is dealt to *anyone* for that hand

  • If the player is not at the table when the second card is dealt to *that player* for that hand

  • If the player is not at the table when everyone has been dealt both cards

  • If the player is not at the table when the action gets around to him

  • Something else (elaborate in replies)


Results are only viewable after voting.

Jimulacrum

Full House
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
2,677
Reaction score
4,219
Location
Pone
For the purpose of this poll, I'm talking about a friendly tournament league at a local private club, and when someone's hand should be considered live or dead if that person has stepped away from the table. From time to time, players may be up and about smoking, buying drinks, and socializing, and due to this certain players (mainly smokers) miss a lot more hands than others.

I'm choosing to define "at the table" as a player at least making physical contact with his chair at the moment described.
 
choosing to define "at the table" as a player at least making physical contact with his chair at the moment described.
I selected the hand is dead when action gets to them, but I'm not going as granular to say they must be physically touching the chair. Depending on the location and set up - if my player is grabbing a beer a simple "Joe, it's your turn" will usually get him rushing back to check his cards, or I'd the blinds are low enough he'll call blind. This of course is in my room, where the table is no less than 15 feet away. This wouldn't work say in a bar league, or if playing in a warehouse space or whatever.
 
I don't think I've ever played a game where the rule wasn't 'fold when the action reaches them'. At a home game with friends only, we'll even wait 15~30ish seconds if someone's using the bathroom/grabbing a drink before folding them.
 
I don't think I've ever played a game where the rule wasn't 'fold when the action reaches them'. At a home game with friends only, we'll even wait 15~30ish seconds if someone's using the bathroom/grabbing a drink before folding them.
This is fine for a single table, but if it's a multi-table tournament, it's not fair to the other table's players.
 
The poll is a bit invalid; the player should not be dealt in if they are not in their seat or directly behind it; it circumvents this issue.

If they are dealt in the large blind the hand plays until there is an action resulting in a decision, meaning raise preflop or bet on the turn or river.

If dealt in the hand would be pulled in at which time the action is on the seat.
 
This is fine for a single table, but if it's a multi-table tournament, it's not fair to the other table's players.
TBH even at a single-table tourney I think it's bad for everyone.

Not unfair, necessarily, but making 8 people wait for 1 person to get his shit together seems … inefficient.
 
The poll is a bit invalid; the player should not be dealt in if they are not in their seat or directly behind it; it circumvents this issue.
I'm a little surprised by this response. This is the clear approach for a cash game all day, but isn't it expected that all live seats in a tournament receive cards, even if they're not present?
 
I'm a little surprised by this response. This is the clear approach for a cash game all day, but isn't it expected that all live seats in a tournament receive cards, even if they're not present?
I browsed the TDA but didn’t see anything specifically.

With the new slogan being “random is random“ I don’t think so.

At cash games where you have to pay a blind I feel like I’m entitled to being dealt in regardless if I’m at the table or not.

In a tournament I prefer the hand is not dealt in at all. Most people aren’t gonna take a break unless they need one and if they need one, they’re not gonna be at the table.

I feel like I’ve read if you’re not at the table at the start of the hand you are not dealt in.

I’ve seen in the TDA, where the start of the hand could be the dealer button is pushed, or the button on the shuffler is pushed, or the first card that flies is the start of the hand.
 
At cash games where you have to pay a blind I feel like I’m entitled to being dealt in regardless if I’m at the table or not.
You're also paying blinds for each orbit in a tournament. In fact, you continue paying them even when you're not at the table, which isn't true of cash.

In a tournament I prefer the hand is not dealt in at all. Most people aren’t gonna take a break unless they need one and if they need one, they’re not gonna be at the table.

I feel like I’ve read if you’re not at the table at the start of the hand you are not dealt in.

I’ve seen in the TDA, where the start of the hand could be the dealer button is pushed, or the button on the shuffler is pushed, or the first card that flies is the start of the hand.
Going to write a standalone reply that addresses this, but suffice it to say that the issue in my game isn't just the occasional player walking away to use the bathroom.
 
I selected the hand is dead when action gets to them, but I'm not going as granular to say they must be physically touching the chair. Depending on the location and set up - if my player is grabbing a beer a simple "Joe, it's your turn" will usually get him rushing back to check his cards, or I'd the blinds are low enough he'll call blind. This of course is in my room, where the table is no less than 15 feet away. This wouldn't work say in a bar league, or if playing in a warehouse space or whatever.
This is how we do it too (we only play cash).
 
The aspect of my game that make this an issue is that we have 2 or 3 players who are constantly away from the table smoking, and it would be extremely unfair to everyone else to call them over and wait for them to get back every time they're not at the table.

The club (think VFW kind of place with its own bar) used to allow smoking, but we didn't allow it at the poker tables, so they'd be at a nearby table and would often try to run back and play a hand, and it was hugely disruptive to the game. We'd repeatedly run into spots where players delayed the game because "Adam's right there!" Whether a player would want to do this could vary from spot to spot, depending on the player's hand or how much he likes the absent player.

This happening once per tournament is no big deal, I guess. Even a few times a game, meh. But as it was, it was substantially affecting the pace of the game. When I asked around about it (I'm the new host and a lot of rules are informal), I was told that the ordinary rule was that your hand is dead if you're not there when the second card lands, but people were willy-nilly about enforcing it. It's a little unusual—especially in light of these responses to my poll—but I decided to roll with it moving forward, and enforce it strictly.

I'm still not really sure if it was the right call.

The smokers have dealt with it very maturely. Most players have. But one player last game got his hand killed and was really unhappy about it. He's not a smoker and isn't often away from the table, but during one hand at a fairly high level (2,000/4,000 blinds, very significant relative to stacks), he stepped away before or during his BB hand.

From my angle, it looked like he was signing up for Super Bowl squares or settling a bar tab, about 8 feet-ish from the table. All the cards got dealt, and he still hadn't sat down. The action got around to the SB, and he still hadn't sat down. His attention wasn't even on the game. Everyone folded to the SB, who called and said "He's not at the table. His hand is dead," which was of course correct. It should have been killed as soon as the second card landed, by the rules, but the dealer just hadn't pulled it in yet.

When we finally got his attention after half a minute of the entire table openly talking about it within earshot of him, he came back to find that we were killing his hand, but everything was still in place, i.e., retrievable. He was pissed. "I was right fucking there! It's my big blind!" And indeed he was, and indeed it was, but we'd been strictly enforcing it against everyone else, every game for like 3 tournaments at that point.

The dealer hesitated to wrap up the hand this way without my say-so, and so I made the explicit ruling that his hand was dead. It would be too unfair to have killed a dozen other hands that same game for not being there the moment the second card landed, but let his hand live when he was absent all the way through his action.

I get that it sucks to lose 4,000 chips that way, but at the same time, he did it to himself. Even if we were using the most generous rule in this poll (hand is killed when action gets to the absent player), his hand would have been killed. In a cash game, a little patience is fine, but we're on the clock and levels are only 13 minutes long. He chose to walk away when he knew his BB was coming during a high blind level. He chose to take his attention completely away from the game; he didn't even notice when his hand was dealt or the action had gotten to him. I would not want this kind of thing to happen with any frequency, especially when the blinds are large relative to stacks.

All of this said, I feel like maybe I should switch to the less stringent rule that your hand is killed when the action gets to you, given how overwhelmingly favored it is here. I'd still like to be strict about being physically at the table, though, because it's just too disruptive otherwise, and unfair to the table that's repeatedly stuck waiting for absent players who are "right there."
 
Like online tourneys I've played, an away player pays blinds and only folds when the action (facing a bet or raise) is on them.
If the away player is in the big blind and it is limped to him, he may even see a flop. Hand declared dead only when facing a bet or raise.
 
Our dealer usually takes a look around the room and if they see the absent player they will call them over saying a new hand is being dealt. That will give the player enough time to get over if they want. If the dealer does not see the player, they will deal all cards and then muck the absent players card as soon as all cards have been dealt (asuming they still do not see the player.) Generally speaking It's the players responsibility to be at the table when cards are dealt.

If a player is getting up and going to the toilet or going to take a call, or going to get himself a beer I'm not very patient and the hand should just be mucked after all cards are dealt (or when its the players turn to act). I would be especially strict with this if this happenes multiple times a night, as it can be pretty annoying for the rest of the players if they constantly have to wait.

However, IF the player is doing something helpful to the table somehow, I prefer waiting for them. For example say its a member going to the door to grab foodora that has been collectively ordered, or the host doing some sort of host duties, I'd be much more patient.
 
If a player is getting up and going to the toilet or going to take a call, or going to get himself a beer I'm not very patient and the hand should just be mucked after all cards are dealt (or when its the players turn to act). I would be especially strict with this if this happenes multiple times a night, as it can be pretty annoying for the rest of the players if they constantly have to wait.
My game is at the "multiple times a [tourney]" stage, which is why any of this was ever a meaningful issue.

You should see how often one of our players leaves the table to smoke. It's maddening. Been playing with the guy on and off for years, and he's been like this the whole time: constantly drinking, constantly smoking, constantly wandering around during the game, no regard whatsoever for how it affects everyone else.

This is why I'm resistant to the "Give him a minute, he's right there" approach here. We'll be giving this guy two levels worth of minutes every game.

However, IF the player is doing something helpful to the table somehow, I prefer waiting for them. For example say its a member going to the door to grab foodora that has been collectively ordered, or the host doing some sort of host duties, I'd be much more patient.
We do this too. The only people who explicitly earn a wait are those who are running or assisting with the game/event, and only during times when they're actually doing that. (If it's going to be a prolonged delay, we pause the clock.)
 
One player to a hand. No player to a hand is an automatic fold.

In our tournaments:

- Dealer deals cards to all live stacks at the table, regardless if player is present or not.
- Once finished with the initial deal, the dealer posts any blinds missing due to absent players.
- Dealer then kills all hands with absent players.
- Action then starts on UTG and continues around the table as normal, with all present players having access to the exact same information.

I think this is a much better rule than killing the hand when action is on the missing player, since all players are acting with the same information up front as to which cards and stacks are in play.
 
The aspect of my game that make this an issue is that we have 2 or 3 players who are constantly away from the table smoking, and it would be extremely unfair to everyone else to call them over and wait for them to get back every time they're not at the table.

The club (think VFW kind of place with its own bar) used to allow smoking, but we didn't allow it at the poker tables, so they'd be at a nearby table and would often try to run back and play a hand, and it was hugely disruptive to the game. We'd repeatedly run into spots where players delayed the game because "Adam's right there!" Whether a player would want to do this could vary from spot to spot, depending on the player's hand or how much he likes the absent player.

This happening once per tournament is no big deal, I guess. Even a few times a game, meh. But as it was, it was substantially affecting the pace of the game. When I asked around about it (I'm the new host and a lot of rules are informal), I was told that the ordinary rule was that your hand is dead if you're not there when the second card lands, but people were willy-nilly about enforcing it. It's a little unusual—especially in light of these responses to my poll—but I decided to roll with it moving forward, and enforce it strictly.

I'm still not really sure if it was the right call.

The smokers have dealt with it very maturely. Most players have. But one player last game got his hand killed and was really unhappy about it. He's not a smoker and isn't often away from the table, but during one hand at a fairly high level (2,000/4,000 blinds, very significant relative to stacks), he stepped away before or during his BB hand.

From my angle, it looked like he was signing up for Super Bowl squares or settling a bar tab, about 8 feet-ish from the table. All the cards got dealt, and he still hadn't sat down. The action got around to the SB, and he still hadn't sat down. His attention wasn't even on the game. Everyone folded to the SB, who called and said "He's not at the table. His hand is dead," which was of course correct. It should have been killed as soon as the second card landed, by the rules, but the dealer just hadn't pulled it in yet.

When we finally got his attention after half a minute of the entire table openly talking about it within earshot of him, he came back to find that we were killing his hand, but everything was still in place, i.e., retrievable. He was pissed. "I was right fucking there! It's my big blind!" And indeed he was, and indeed it was, but we'd been strictly enforcing it against everyone else, every game for like 3 tournaments at that point.

The dealer hesitated to wrap up the hand this way without my say-so, and so I made the explicit ruling that his hand was dead. It would be too unfair to have killed a dozen other hands that same game for not being there the moment the second card landed, but let his hand live when he was absent all the way through his action.

I get that it sucks to lose 4,000 chips that way, but at the same time, he did it to himself. Even if we were using the most generous rule in this poll (hand is killed when action gets to the absent player), his hand would have been killed. In a cash game, a little patience is fine, but we're on the clock and levels are only 13 minutes long. He chose to walk away when he knew his BB was coming during a high blind level. He chose to take his attention completely away from the game; he didn't even notice when his hand was dealt or the action had gotten to him. I would not want this kind of thing to happen with any frequency, especially when the blinds are large relative to stacks.

All of this said, I feel like maybe I should switch to the less stringent rule that your hand is killed when the action gets to you, given how overwhelmingly favored it is here. I'd still like to be strict about being physically at the table, though, because it's just too disruptive otherwise, and unfair to the table that's repeatedly stuck waiting for absent players who are "right there."

Because it's a public environment, and the rounds are 13 minutes, I would advocate making a rule change. Unfortunately, it might not quite address this situation, because it's the caveat. By not dealing it in there are no hard feelings or hard rulings that can be called bias.

Players not at the table when the hand is dealt, are not dealt a hand. The exception would be the SB and BB, BB plays until there is a raise or bet post flop, if the action is on the BB they have 20 (or XX) seconds to act, at the dealer's discretion. I would discuss with the dealers, if they see someone walking back to the table with the intent to play they can deal them in, but its on the player to make eye contact or signal they want in. If that player takes a left and doesn't make it to the table immediately muck the hand regardless of action.

The emotional part of not being dealt in vs the emotional part of having a hand mucked is significantly easier to deal with. The BB situation can be rough, but setting these expectations can make it easier to give leniency to these situations for anyone where this would affect them. It doesn't sound like anyone is trying taking advantage of not being at the table.

I would make an announcement about a rule change, explain that with the short rounds that a player not at the table at the start of the deal will not be dealt in. I would also add in a 3-minute break for the higher-level rounds. Fiends can get a quick smoke and it's not likely to extend the tournament very long.

Either way I'm sure the players appreciate your dedication for ensuring a positive experience!
 
One player to a hand. No player to a hand is an automatic fold.

In our tournaments:

- Dealer deals cards to all live stacks at the table, regardless if player is present or not.
- Once finished with the initial deal, the dealer posts any blinds missing due to absent players.
- Dealer then kills all hands with absent players.
- Action then starts on UTG and continues around the table as normal, with all present players having access to the exact same information.

I think this is a much better rule than killing the hand when action is on the missing player, since all players are acting with the same information up front as to which cards and stacks are in play.
From the TD himself! Very viable, still the same spot in your example of the BB, but again I would take the softer route with the BB.
 
I browsed the TDA but didn’t see anything specifically.
It's in there. Rule 30.

30: At Your Seat and Live Hands
To have a live hand, players must be at their seats when the last card is dealt to all players on the initial deal. Players not then at their seats may not look at their cards which are killed immediately. Their posted blinds and antes forfeit to the pot and an absent player dealt the stud bring-in card posts the bring-in. “At your seat” means in reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to encourage players to be out of their seats while in a hand.

At this year's WSOP main event final table, someone's hand was killed because he was half a table away when the dealer finished dealing all the preflop cards. I want to say it was Michael Duek?

At a home game environment, I think (and most people here seem to agree) that the default rule is too strict. The hand should be dead when the player isn't within reach when it gets to his action.
 
It's in there. Rule 30.



At this year's WSOP main event final table, someone's hand was killed because he was half a table away when the dealer finished dealing all the preflop cards. I want to say it was Michael Duek?

At a home game environment, I think (and most people here seem to agree) that the default rule is too strict. The hand should be dead when the player isn't within reach when it gets to his action.
Although that approach is not fair to all of the players who have a hand.
 
My house it’s dead when everyone has all their cards, same as every card room I’ve ever been to. Part of the consideration for me is accidental glimpses of opponents hole cards. I dunno how much of that is an actual issue but seems like it could be.

Why is the card room standard only 8% of the vote. Weird
 
I think this is a much better rule than killing the hand when action is on the missing player, since all players are acting with the same information up front as to which cards and stacks are in play.
I get your point that knowing who is in the hand effects play, but in most casual settings I'm not really sure that's a big issue here. In the case of the league that I run on a monthly basis (and I'm guessing this is the case with many home games), we only have 2 tables and the setup is such that even if a player is away from the table (getting a drink, food, etc) they are normally within talking distance and we're generally willing to wait 5-10 seconds for them to come back to the table (as long as they're not abusing this and it's not happening constantly). For that reason, no one really doubts that the player in question is going to play the hand, and I've only had to fold a hand without the person getting back to the table perhaps 2 or 3 times over the course of a whole year.

If we were having issues with players leaving the table to smoke frequently (and not being right there to play their hand), or other extended absences, I would be in favor of killing all absent hands as soon as the cards are all dealt as per rule 30, and that would probably have to apply across the board even if people are in the room but not "at their seats."

Even with our current lax rules, if someone tells us they are going to be away for a few hands (or are no longer in the area of the poker tables) I think the fairest approach is to kill their hand as soon as the cards are dealt (so that everyone knows they're not in the hand), which is probably what I will implement moving forward (so I guess that would be more of a "your hand is dead if you're not in the room when the deal ends" rule).

In the situation described by @Jimulacrum I'm all in favor of folding all absent hands as soon as the deal is complete, even more so if you have a dedicated dealer to do so (which it sounds like from your post but maybe I misunderstood). One of the main reasons I haven't implemented something like this is we have a self-dealt game and I barely trust everyone to deal, let alone to start killing hands, and I can't be everywhere to enforce it evenly at both tables.
 
In the situation described by @Jimulacrum I'm all in favor of folding all absent hands as soon as the deal is complete, even more so if you have a dedicated dealer to do so (which it sounds like from your post but maybe I misunderstood). One of the main reasons I haven't implemented something like this is we have a self-dealt game and I barely trust everyone to deal, let alone to start killing hands, and I can't be everywhere to enforce it evenly at both tables.
The game is self-dealt until we get to the final table (of only two tables). At that point, someone volunteers to deal for the duration. Not a professional dealer, but at least someone who knows how to do it.

It's a private club in the sense that it's restricted to members and you have to pay dues. It's not a "private club" that's really a semi-public poker room, as I know these places are often called. There's nothing public about it. You can't even be in the building by law if you're not a member.

And yes, this is the crux of why I leaned into the "as soon as the absent player's complete hand is dealt" rule. It's fairer to other players in multiple ways, and it simplifies things so people don't feel obligated to constantly look around to see if one of the smokers is on his way back.
 
I get that it sucks to lose 4,000 chips that way, but at the same time, he did it to himself. Even if we were using the most generous rule in this poll (hand is killed when action gets to the absent player), his hand would have been killed. In a cash game, a little patience is fine, but we're on the clock and levels are only 13 minutes long. He chose to walk away when he knew his BB was coming during a high blind level. He chose to take his attention completely away from the game; he didn't even notice when his hand was dealt or the action had gotten to him. I would not want this kind of thing to happen with any frequency, especially when the blinds are large relative to stacks.
When I first saw “friendly” in your description I immediately voted with what turned out to be the majority. But after reconsidering the environment - yeah it’s friendly, but it’s also a MTT at a club with distractions - I changed my vote. Butt in seat when all cards are dealt is as fair as I’d be willing to be in this environment.

And as a side note, this guy got exactly what he deserved. In a tournament, especially the later stages, who the hell leaves their seat when they’re in the blinds? It’s really just dumb, and then to complain about it is rude especially when there’s a known rule that’s been enforced.

My only concern with all of this is that it’s self dealt, so people could abuse it a bit and deal quickly or slowly to screw their enemies or help their friends. But at the end of the day, for a $20 tournament, que sera sera.
 
My only concern with all of this is that it’s self dealt, so people could abuse it a bit and deal quickly or slowly to screw their enemies or help their friends.
Yeah, to me this is the only loose end, but I don't see myself getting it done any cleaner than that.

Hopefully it won't even become an issue. I haven't seen any behavior to indicate anyone's looking for an unfair advantage.
 
For the purpose of this poll, I'm talking about a friendly tournament league at a local private club, and when someone's hand should be considered live or dead if that person has stepped away from the table. From time to time, players may be up and about smoking, buying drinks, and socializing, and due to this certain players (mainly smokers) miss a lot more hands than others.

I'm choosing to define "at the table" as a player at least making physical contact with his chair at the moment described.
If you follow TDA strictly, the hand is dead if the player is not "at the table" when the last card comes off the deck for the initial deal. (EDIT: @ArielVer18 found it already.)

Now if you don't follow TDA strictly, making a different rule that suits your game, but can be applied consistently would be a good idea. I think the next best choice is dead when the action reaches a player that is not "at the table."
 
If you follow TDA strictly, the hand is dead if the player is not "at the table" when the last card comes off the deck for the initial deal. (EDIT: @ArielVer18 found it already.)

Now if you don't follow TDA strictly, making a different rule that suits your game, but can be applied consistently would be a good idea. I think the next best choice is dead when the action reaches a player that is not "at the table."
Ahh, but what does "at the table" really mean?

Seated with legs under the table, sure. Standing next to it with your hand on the rail, yup.

But what about standing an arm's length away? More than an arm's length? There's too much ambiguity.

There is no ambiguity with "Making physical contact with your chair." I suppose someone could be a smartass and carry the chair around the club. I hope it does not ever come to that.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom