What would you do?

Discussion in 'Poker Strategy' started by AceFour, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:38 AM.

?

You are first to act, what do you do?

This poll will close on Nov 21, 2017 at 9:38 AM.
  1. Check

    1 vote(s)
    3.7%
  2. Shove

    25 vote(s)
    92.6%
  3. Pray

    1 vote(s)
    3.7%
  1. Nov 14, 2017 at 9:38 AM
    #1
    AceFour

    AceFour High Hand

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    Tournament, final table, pays 3 and 7 left.

    Your stack is 15k, blinds are 1000/2000. You are at the cutoff and players are playing tighter at the final table. Folds all around and you look down and have :ah::jh:. You raise pre-flop to 6000. SB folds BB calls. Pot is now 13k an you have 9k behind. Villain has you covered

    Flop comes

    :js::8h::5c:
     
  2. Nov 14, 2017 at 9:41 AM
    #2
    RichMahogany

    RichMahogany Straight

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    With less than a pot sized bet left behind and TPTK on a fairly dry board, shoving all day long if checked to by villain. If villain bets, still putting it all in the middle.

    Villain is in the SB? We’d have position, not the first to act. This should have been an AIPF move with only 7.5 BB left when it folds around to hero.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 9:48 AM
  3. Nov 14, 2017 at 9:47 AM
    #3
    Ronoh

    Ronoh Full House

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    With an M of 5 you should have just jammed pre instead of making a raise for 40% of your stack. As played it’s probably the easiest jam I’ve seen in a strat thread in quite awhile :)
     
  4. Nov 14, 2017 at 9:50 AM
    #4
    links_slayer

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    M = 5, probably should've shoved preflop. At this point I don't know what other options are available besides getting all your chips in the middle.
     
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  5. Nov 14, 2017 at 9:50 AM
    #5
    Trihonda

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    Yes, this. AIPF with 7-8bb and suited broadway cards.

    As played, hard to ask for a better flop, other than all hearts. Or KQT rainbow. :). Get it in.

    Edited: I didn’t vote above, because it’s an obvious poll. 100% will say shove.

    Though I expect villain in your hand somehow gets there?
     
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  6. Nov 14, 2017 at 10:15 AM
    #6
    Darthhoodie

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    I shove preflop in this situation with hands less than AJ suited.

    With an M=5 you are looking for a spot to shove so this is a golden opportunity, folds to you and you look down and see AJ. Shove and hope it holds up.

    Even if SB and BB fold to your shove, you would be happy to scoop another SB/ BB from this situation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 10:21 AM
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  7. Nov 14, 2017 at 10:17 AM
    #7
    bergs

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    I shove and start making knocking noises under the table while showing weird facial expressions mixed with the occasional groan.
     
  8. Nov 14, 2017 at 10:27 AM
    #8
    nitzilla

    nitzilla Flush

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    So 9 players entered this tournament and 7 are left.....??? :confused:;)

    Oh and yeah, shove preflop, all day every day and try to shove twice on Sundays.......
     
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  9. Nov 14, 2017 at 10:37 AM
    #9
    detroitdad

    detroitdad Royal Flush

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    concur.
     
  10. Nov 14, 2017 at 10:48 AM
    #10
    upNdown

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    Fair enough, but Helmuth wouldn’t have jammed pre, and that guy’s won a few tournaments.
     
  11. Nov 14, 2017 at 10:53 AM
    #11
    BGinGA

    BGinGA Tourney Director

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    No question Phil shoves in that spot. And loses.
     
  12. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:02 AM
    #12
    Ronoh

    Ronoh Full House

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    As a shortstack? I’m gonna disagree :)
     
  13. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:04 AM
    #13
    RichMahogany

    RichMahogany Straight

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    Phil is my actual first name so I read this post a little differently than others might have :p
     
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  14. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:08 AM
    #14
    AceFour

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    Well I believe I made two mistakes . . .

    1) I should have shoved pre-flop
    2) I shoved post flop

    Let me explain the 2nd mistake. I am first to act and if I thought a little more before acting I might have checked. The other player would have probably raised pre-flop if he had a very strong hand. So what was he playing with? Clearly not high cards but he would call with just a low pocket pair. As it turns out he had :5h::5s: for trips. Heart came out on the turn but not the river nor did a jack to bust me out.

    Not sure if it would have made a big difference. I'm not sure if he would call a shove pre-flop or not. He had a medium size stack.
     
  15. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:08 AM
    #15
    upNdown

    upNdown Full House

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    Negreanu likes to joke (and I don’t think he’s joking) that he’s seen Helmuth down to 10 big blinds, play and lose 7 hands, and still be alive. The guy would prefer to see a flop before he puts all his tournament chips in the middle. I also think he thinks he’ll get paid off better with slower play in that situation.
     
  16. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:11 AM
    #16
    AceFour

    AceFour High Hand

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    When re-buy ended (different tournament) at the beginning of 300/600 I had 2 chips for a total value of 1500. I won that tournament 3 hours later. It can happen!
     
  17. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:13 AM
    #17
    nitzilla

    nitzilla Flush

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    If you aren’t putting all of your chips in preflop with that stack size and those blinds, I don’t care who you are, you’re not playing tournament hold ‘em properly........
    Of course the Villain shows up with T9o or 67s and spikes the straight 100% of the time, but still.......

    This coming from a “2-time WSOP Cashier”....... @MatB :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:;)
     
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  18. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:18 AM
    #18
    nitzilla

    nitzilla Flush

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    Not to rain on your parade, but a Jack doesn’t help you......... (Villain Boats up and you still lose......)
    :coffee:
     
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  19. Nov 14, 2017 at 11:19 AM
    #19
    Ronoh

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    Definitely agree, my second 1000+man win I had 600 chips at 400/800 a couple hours in.
     
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  20. Nov 14, 2017 at 2:33 PM
    #20
    Jimulacrum

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    Well, #1 was a mistake, but as of the flop, #2 was not a mistake.

    Given the pot size and stack sizes, you have to shove the flop. Failing to shove in that spot is ludicrous. You started with 7.5 BB and created a pot that was significantly bigger than your stack. At that point, you cannot fold, and it's not a spot to be offering anyone a free card. Shove all day. Protect your hand when your opponent is behind (which will be the vast majority of the time).

    Just because you got unlucky and ran into a set doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Even if you assume he had to have a small pair, he just as easily could have had 22, 33, 44, 66, 77, 88, 99, or TT. One of those (the least likely of the bunch, BTW) beats you, and the rest you have crushed. If they fold, you win a nice-sized pot, and if they call, you win even more.

    Don't beat yourself up over this. Tournament poker is full of spots like this one.

    Let me ask you something, though. Suppose Villain had shoved preflop, what's your play?
     
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  21. Nov 14, 2017 at 2:40 PM
    #21
    Chippy McChiperson

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    I'm surprised no one has said this yet. You should have shoved pre-flop! As played, shove the flop. Don't beat yourself up over this, it's a sick cooler. If you check and he jams, are you ever folding top pair top kicker (with the backdoor nut flush draw to boot)? Probably not, and if you are then your play is exploitable.
     
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  22. Nov 14, 2017 at 3:05 PM
    #22
    WedgeRock

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    1) Agreed.
    2) Disagree - you're results-oriented
     
  23. Nov 14, 2017 at 3:23 PM
    #23
    AceFour

    AceFour High Hand

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    I would assume he had a pair but probably would have called anyway since I was short stacked. If I was mid-stack I probably would have folded and chosen my battles to get in the money.
     
  24. Nov 14, 2017 at 3:39 PM
    #24
    RichMahogany

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    Villain’s stack size is also a little more important than “has me covered.” If I found a small pocket pair in the BB with 20 or less bigs facing an AIPF, I’d think twice about folding my small pair. The best I could hope for would of course be a more than unlikely 5 on the flop and/or facing a blind steal with ATC and losing the hand would put me close to the danger zone. Probably still calling, but the fold would be considered.

    If sitting in the big blind with 25-30 bigs, I’m calling all day with my small pocket pair.
     
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  25. Nov 15, 2017 at 7:37 PM
    #25
    Zippity

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    Sorry if this sounds newbish... But what is m=5?
     
  26. Nov 15, 2017 at 7:50 PM
    #26
    RichMahogany

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  27. Nov 15, 2017 at 9:06 PM
    #27
    v1pe

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    Shove pre

    As played get it all in on the flop however the action works out.

    Don't be too results oriented, the only small mistake you made was not shoving pre. You just got coolered.
     
  28. Nov 15, 2017 at 9:49 PM
    #28
    Darthhoodie

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    This hand is set up for you to lose either way, so no reason to beat yourself up. Analyze the hand, identify your mistake and move on.

    The correct move was to shove pre flop, OK so you didn't, you raised.
    A mistake, but now you are heads up vs the BB.

    You flop top pair top kicker. There is no way you could possible see him hit his set of 5's. If you "read" he hit a set on the flop, your seeing monsters under the bed and most likely folding winning hands to nothing.

    After the flop, this part of the scenario doesn't make sense, because you would not be 1st to act in the cutoff seat, the BB would be 1st to act.
    Did the BB check to you with his set? Did the BB bet, call you all in?
    Either way I cant see how you don't get the remaining 9K of your stack in the middle in this situation.

    With your stack size, shove preflop or not you should lose it all on this hand.
    This is one reason you don't analyze the hand based on the result. If you do the right thing and shove pre flop, BB calls and you lose.
     
  29. Nov 16, 2017 at 7:00 PM
    #29
    Lemonzest

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    <10 bb pre flop shove AJ all day every day.
     
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  30. Nov 16, 2017 at 7:36 PM
    #30
    Darthhoodie

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    Twice on Sunday:cool:
     
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