What would you do - Unusual misdeal last night

BEANO52

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Tournament table, 8 handed

UTG call, MP call, LP call, SB call, BB raise preflop (5 players in).
UTG fold, MP call, LP fold, SB call (3 players remain)

3 to the flop - Ax 9x 3x
SB check
BB bet
third player folds
SB checks cards & discovers they have 3 cards
Seemingly, they were dealt 2 and a couple were stuck. Only discovered post flop + action.

What do you do?

Table consensus was to return all monies and declare the whole hand a misdeal, replay. The player with 3 cards had AKK. Everyone was happy to just rule it a misdeal and move on
 

CdnBeerLover

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Action has already occured and the player has the incorrect number of cards. It honestly depends on the ruleset you are following. TDA rules do not mention it (at least the 2017 version we currently use).

If you are following RROP (http://www.gottatalkpoker.com/rrp/RobertsRules.pdf) under Dead Hands 1d, SB's hand is dead, and the hand continues.
 

DoubleEagle

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100% the SB's hand is dead. Significant action has occurred so it is NOT a misdeal. It is always the players responsibility to confirm they have the correct number of cards. Why would you want to penalize the rest of the table cause the SB was not paying attention?
 

upNdown

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Hand is dead, according to official rules, but I’m fine with canceling the hand and returning bets in a friendly home game, as long as everyone agrees.
I guess you could make a stronger argument for this if the home game is self-dealt, and an even stronger argument if the dealer were involved in the hand, and an almost undeniable argument if the dealer happened to benefit from this error (not the case in this particular hand, but something to consider, for sure.)
 

philhut

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SB had "AKK"? wow

What did they think they had? I can honestly say a similar situation happened to me in a game once. I was as deep into the soda as I was in the game and If I remember right I was even in a showdown thinking I won when I all of a sudden had 3 cards.... lol

1x - its an innocent mistake, if it ever happens again consider your player may be holding back high cards at opportunity.
 

BEANO52

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Thanks for the input, I'll share it at tonight's game. Looks like SB dead hand is the consensus.
FYI, there is extremely slim to 0 chance the SB was leveling.
This is a very friendly home game that has played for several years with only a single (known) time of cheating (bottom dealing = permanent lifetime ban).
 

Kain8

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This situation is so rare that some empathy should be exercised for all participants. It's honestly a good litmus test to see who amongst your group of players is there to have a nice time or is there to "crush souls". Those players who are crying out to declare their hand dead and forfeit their portion of chips are being pretty narrow-minded I feel.

What if the player with AKK got all-in preflop with a smaller stack against someone who can bust them? The 3 cards are discovered and you're just going to Thanos snap him out of the game and award the pot to the other player? Just because you CAN do that within the rules of a home tournament, doesn't mean you SHOULD given the circumstances.
 

sheikh617

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This situation is so rare that some empathy should be exercised for all participants. It's honestly a good litmus test to see who amongst your group of players is there to have a nice time or is there to "crush souls". Those players who are crying out to declare their hand dead and forfeit their portion of chips are being pretty narrow-minded I feel.

What if the player with AKK got all-in preflop with a smaller stack against someone who can bust them? The 3 cards are discovered and you're just going to Thanos snap him out of the game and award the pot to the other player? Just because you CAN do that within the rules of a home tournament, doesn't mean you SHOULD given the circumstances.
I'm with this. If the player is known to have a good reputation and has never had a mishap at any of my games, I am 100% okay with having everyone take their bets back and just moving on to the next hand. My home game is mostly among friends and people I've known most of my life. Yes, we are competitive and playing with the goal to win money, but I think keeping everyone happy and coming back is the goal. This is a great opportunity to also issue warnings though. You can make a player friendly ruling here and let them know moving forward, stricter rules will be applied. Ultimately, as long as the player in question is in good standing and not shady, just move on to the next hand. Mistakes happen.
 

Poker Zombie

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Our game is very friendly - and I would have ruled the hand dead.

I'd feel bad about it, but if the player went to a tougher game (higher stakes or a casino) he should know what to expect. Pretending it didn't happen isn't a lesson. When your child runs blindly into the street, you don't say, "lets try that again", they are dealt a punishment they will remember.

I'd rather have a friend make a mistake for $20 than a mistake for $500. If everyone felt badly enough they could agree to a chop, giving them their $20 from the prize pool.

TDA rule 35D "Once substantial action occurs a misdeal cannot be declared; the hand must proceed (See Rule 36)"

Rule 36 covers what Substantial action is, in case you were wondering.
 

trigs

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This happened to me once at my cash game I was hosting. I was not dealing the hand (we do self deal). We made it to the flop before I realized I had an extra card. No idea how I missed it to begin with. I immediately announced I had an extra card and that my hand was dead and gave the pot to the other guy in the hand. After all, it's my fault if I don't know how many cards I'm holding.
 

CrazyEddie

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My answer would depend on whether you think that your group knows or should know that there is a person responsible for making rulings (you) and that you will do your best to make such rulings in accordance with a pre-established body of rules. To put it another way - do your players know that a) there's a right way to play and b) in your game, you specifically are going to be responsible for knowing what the right way is and helping everyone else to play the right way?

If so, then you definitely should have ruled the hand dead. It's the right way to play.

If not, then by all means survey the group and see if they can establish a consensus on the right action to take... which is exactly what you did.

Hauling out "well AKSHUALLY according to Robert's Rules it says..." is a great way to piss off half of your players if they aren't expecting it. So, yeah, in a game like that just make a suggestion and hope that everyone agrees it's fair.

But on the other hand, if you let everyone know right up front that rules exist, that you know what they are, that you'll be responsible for making rulings, and that you'll do your best to rule the right way according to the rules... then everyone will be happy that you are explicitly taking responsibility for making the tough calls, and everyone will be happy to accede to your rulings whenever you have to make them.
 

upNdown

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Depending on the game, the crowd, the mood, I may look at my cards as soon as they're dealt, or I may wait until it's my turn to act. I think there's fine reasons to do either, and that's why sometimes I do either. But what I always do for certain, is check to make sure I only have two cards, as soon as I get them, whether I'm peeking or not. And that's because I saw some lady get bigly screwed out of her big blind, at an inopportune moment in a tournament, because she didn't notice she had 3 cards until it was her turn to act (and significant action had already occurred.) I only learned about this rule after seeing somebody get screwed by it, and since then, I've actually been dealt 3 cards. It doesn't happen often, but I'd say it happens more often than a royal.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that if you want to be "nice" and call a do-over at your home game, go ahead; it's your game. But I think you're doing your players a disservice if you don't actually point out that in real life the hand would be ruled dead, and that they'd be screwed if they somehow had chips in the pot before they figured it out. It might be a fine line to walk, explaining to your players that "in a casino they do it this way, but we're doing it this way" without sounding like a big douche, but in some cases (like this one) I think it needs to be done.
 

Mr Winberg

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I'm all for occasionally ruling with the heart rather than by the book. I think I'd rule the hand dead in this situation, though.

I just want to point out that if doing this:
I’m fine with canceling the hand and returning bets in a friendly home game, as long as everyone agrees.
the player who would win the pot according to the rules (in this case the BB) might feel pressured to "agree".
 

JustinInMN

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SB checks cards & discovers they have 3 cards
Seemingly, they were dealt 2 and a couple were stuck. Only discovered post flop + action.

What do you do?

I think his hand is dead but play continues as normal for everyone else since sig action has occurred

I think most casinos will call their hand dead, they forfeit the pot. Basically “you’re responsible for checking your cards” kind of deal.

This is the right ruling and the right reason. If you just count the cards from the deal, it's so easy to correct on the spot. Once play proceeds though, it should be completed or else there will be damage to players that have acted and made sure of their holdings.

But in a friendly game I’d probably return all bets considering action has been influenced by a dead hand

Hand is dead, according to official rules, but I’m fine with canceling the hand and returning bets in a friendly home game, as long as everyone agrees.

I would have a huge problem with a game that would make that ruling to return the bets. Players need to be responsible for what they hold. Rulings that allow for the returning of bets are really limited to a fouled deck only, and for good reason. Otherwise it becomes too easy to find an irregularity as soon as the hand is going the wrong way.

I know some people don't like being too much "by the book," but in this case there is good reason for it.
 

Snapplefacts

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I know some people don't like being too much "by the book," but in this case there is good reason for it.
Now that you mention it, I agree. I tend to be the host of most of the games I play with friends, and we’ve gone from micros to 1/2. I tried to go by the book as often as possible when playing low stakes so that everyone knows the rules and is comfortable calling them out when real money is on the line. A big one for my group was verbally binding bets. “Joking” about going all in when it’s your action and getting snapped by someone else might be funny for 5 dollars, until the all-in would be a few hundred bucks
 

JustinInMN

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Now that you mention it, I agree. I tend to be the host of most of the games I play with friends, and we’ve gone from micros to 1/2. I tried to go by the book as often as possible when playing low stakes so that everyone knows the rules and is comfortable calling them out when real money is on the line. A big one for my group was verbally binding bets. “Joking” about going all in when it’s your action and getting snapped by someone else might be funny for 5 dollars, until the all-in would be a few hundred bucks

Sometimes it happens on Live at the Bike!


https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/incident-at-recent-online-home-game.68429/#post-1379532

(stick tap @RichMahogany )
 

Schmendr1ck

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I can be pretty lenient with my players at times, especially in the very casual $20 weekly tourney group. But I've had this situation a few times over the years and have always ruled it a dead hand. It sucks if the player has substantial chips in the pot, but consistency with this particular rule is important for reasons already listed in this thread.
 

CrazyEddie

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Plus several thousand for style points, but minus a one-orbit penalty. Every player has an obligation to point out irregularities when discovered.
 
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