What to think about KQsQTs in Omaha hi-lo? (1 Viewer)

[DrStrange]

Playing dinky stakes fixed limit Omaha hi-lo with the normal cast of hyper-loose players - folks that fold less than 25% of the time facing a raise and less than 10% of the time if allowed to limp.

Hero holds (but it could be a host of hands with four broadway cards) in middle to late position. Should Hero fold, limp or raise? Should he 3-bet? How about 4-bet cap?

DrStrange

 

[Ben]

Raise? For sure.
3-bet? Probably.
Already facing a 3-bet against a cast like this? Fold. (Don't fold if you have KQJT with a suit though...)

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I'd probably raise, but only because I raise almost every hand. But ideally in high-low a normal person should probably raise with hands that play both ways. Also what's your position, that should play a big part.

 

[courage]

Limp. You have a one way hand in a split pot game where nobody folds. The K helps your QQ but not a lot. There will still be a lot of boards where you'll have to fold and won't be able to extract value. If you could get HU in position that plan might make sense but here I think the plan is to get in cheap in a multi-way pot and hope to quarter some low hands.

 

[grandgnu]

if in MP I'm inclined to limp, you have a one-way hand and want a lot of people to see the flop with low-oriented holdings in the hope of hitting a high-only board that you might scoop.

If in LP I can see limping as fine or raising to build a bigger pot for the times you do hit a high-only flop to extract money out of low-oriented holdings that might not pay anything additional post-flop when you smash it.

 

[snooptodd]

In hi-low, I almost always limp with hands like this. You don't want to swell the pot and give yourself pot odds to call when you're drawing to a split pot. Wait until you hit big on the lrop then pump the pot, or let yourself get away from the hand easily when you miss.

 

[DrStrange]

I had thought the hidden value in a hand like this is it often wins the whole pot when it hits.

Sometimes there will be a low plus hero's full house or flush but the straights are all sweepers except for J98xx.

Are we thinking that there are almost no "high hand only" worthy of a preflop raise?

DrStrange

 

[grandgnu]

I had thought the hidden value in a hand like this is it often wins the whole pot when it hits.

Sometimes there will be a low plus hero's full house or flush but the straights are all sweepers except for J98xx.

Are we thinking that there are almost no "high hand only" worthy of a preflop raise?

DrStrange

As I stated, I'm fine with a raise in later position if there's a lot of limpers. Lots of limpers "usually" indicates a wealth of low-oriented hands, which increases the chances that you'll hit a high-only flop. So raising from LP after a bunch of limpers with a high-only hand is fine because you want to build the pot now for flops that these guys will whiff on a decent amount of the time.

The only issue with the holding you posted is the potential to make non-nut flushes.

I'm fine with a limp in any position with this holding, or with a raise from LP.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero isn't getting excited about a queen high flush. Been there, done that - 3rd nut flush is a loser when we play a big pot. (and playing hi-low Hero can convince himself all the aggression is coming from the winning low hands.)

Not even when it is a runner-runner river flush -=- DrStrange

 

[DrStrange]

*** Results (for what little they are worth) ***

Hero raises and we play a seven way pot.

Final board < >

Hero gets to bet each street holding the nut high. Low gets chopped with A5 (yes a lot of folks called the flop bet needing the runner-runner low to come in.)

DrStrange

 

[grandgnu]

*** Results (for what little they are worth) ***

Hero raises and we play a seven way pot.

Final board < >

Hero gets to bet each street holding the nut high. Low gets chopped with A5 (yes a lot of folks called the flop bet needing the runner-runner low to come in.)

DrStrange

Hero doesn't have the nut high on the river, fwiw

 

[Mental Nomad]

Hero doesn't have the nut high on the river, fwiw

Exactly. It's surprisingly difficult for trips to be the nuts by the time five are on the board.

 

[snooptodd]

Hero doesn't have the nut high on the river, fwiw

The good doctor edited to indicate the 7h came on the river, thus he did have the nuts. You were just too fast on the reply, gnu.

 

[Leonard]

FWIW I raise most of the time with this hand preflop if limped to and call a raise. Likely call a 3-bet - that means that there are a lot of A2 and A3 out there and your hand has a reasonable shot at the high and could scoop if no low comes.

L

 

[Leonard]

Exactly. It's surprisingly difficult for trips to be the nuts by the time five are on the board.

A set of Queens is the lowest hand that can be the nuts after the river. Useless trivia.

 

[DrStrange]

Another thought in Hero's mind - balance. The significant majority of Hero's raising hands are good low hands often with some hope of a high but not always. Hero commonly sees villains calling down "light" on the high side when it looks obvious that Hero is playing a low hand. While the villains are crazy loose and value hands poorly, after enough years some of them start to learn what Hero's preflop raises say about his hand. (but not all - - played with Ms Unlucky last night who kept losing to Hero's nut low with some garbage low and bitterly complaining about her bad luck.)


DrStrange

 

[jbutler]

FWIW I raise most of the time with this hand preflop if limped to and call a raise. Likely call a 3-bet - that means that there are a lot of A2 and A3 out there and your hand has a reasonable shot at the high and could scoop if no low comes.

a little late to the party, but very much this. the bonus, of course, is that even when a low comes after you've made your hand, you make money because the donkeys will contest the low multi-way.

i think 3-betting pre in O8 is really, really badly mangled a giant percentage of the time. even guys i play with who have played the same game 3 or 4 times a week for literally decades don't get that you should not be 3-betting with A23x/A24x/etc. in order to draw people in who will put as much of their money in as they can without even considering that you're freerolling to counterfeit their low.

that is not to say that this hand is necessarily a 3-bet pre imo, but if i had to choose between 3-betting this hand and 3-betting As2s3d4d, i would 3-bet this one.

 

[Ben]

The way I see it, if we more or less pump as many bets as possible in with this hand pre, 2 things happen:

1) we may be able to force out other mediocre-decent high hands that could contest the high with us.
2) we still get called by everybody on the planet with low hands, who will be forced to keep calling bets in an inflated pot with any glimmer of hope for a low/straight/whatever. We can often get half of or even all of a huge multiway pot. Conversely, if the flop comes 2 3 7, WE can still dump this hand with no additional investment.

These things seem good. Also, I like saying "raise."

 

[jbutler]

The way I see it, if we more or less pump as many bets as possible in with this hand pre, 2 things happen:

1) we may be able to force out other mediocre-decent high hands that could contest the high with us.
2) we still get called by everybody on the planet with low hands, who will be forced to keep calling bets in an inflated pot with any glimmer of hope for a low/straight/whatever. We can often get half of or even all of a huge multiway pot. Conversely, if the flop comes 2 3 7, WE can still dump this hand with no additional investment.

These things seem good. Also, I like saying "raise."

i agree with this rationale so long as the donkeys are as Strange has described.

 

[detroitdad]

i agree with this rationale so long as the donkeys are as Strange has described.

Yep.............if its a solid table of players then it should have been played differently. Doesn't sound like it, so well done.

Doesn't sound like lack of action is a problem. Lets get crazy and introduce PLO8 double board with a winner for each board.

 

[DrStrange]

Let's don't do that. There are several times each session where we disagree on who has the winning low. Several players do not truly understand why A2 isn't the nut low on a 2 5 6 8 K K board. {really}

Two boards at once = exploding heads and loud arguments. Plus we play with all sorts of chips, 0.25, 0.50, 1.00, 5.00 and I don't want to be chopping something really crazy.

DrStrange