Turn a house fold a house ? (1 Viewer)

Gunnar

Flush
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Messages
1,761
Reaction score
4,043
Location
Iceland
Tournament 5 places paid.
8 left.

Blinds 2000/4000 200 ante

avg stack is around 110K
Im UTG with 240K stack

We open 11.000 :9d::9h:

Villain one , a very tight player UTG +1 puts it to 25.000 and has 200K behind we are the two biggest stacks.

button calls. 80K behind

I flat.

Pot 83600
:jh::qs::9s:

I check

Villain bets half a pot 40K.

Button folds

I call.

Pot 163600

I have 175K ish left and he has 150K ish

Turn :qc:

we check
he checks behind

River :ac:

I bet 75K
He insta shoves

Can we find a fold with our boat ?
 
Brutal spot, brother.
Call me a stupid nitt, but I can remember folding pre in a very similar situation. Out of position with pocket 9’s with a big stack, around the bubble? Could lead to the kind of trouble I don’t need.
As played? You’re beaten by a LOT of hands here, all within his range? I’d hate to fold here, but if you have 100k behind and that’s almost average, I think I’d find a fold. And quite a few expletives.
 
I would have taken a little different line in a couple spots.

The 11k open feels a little big, I’m generally opening to about 9k.

I’m check shoving that turn, it’s a crazy draw heavy flop and I don’t hate taking down a good sized pot here. I’m putting him on AA, KK, one combo of QQ, JJ, AKss, maybe some suited AQ here.

When he checks that turn I’m narrowing his range to AA, KK and Slow played JJ or the one combo of QQ. Given that range I think check calling the river is maybe the play as that A hits a lot of his probable range if he’s not already full. As played I think you’re beat, but getting 4:1 is hard to fold a boat. Given the ICM considerations though, I think folding leaving yourself a 25bb stack might be the way to go.
 
The pot is already 388,600, and it's 75,000 to call, for about 5.2:1 pot odds. If he could be bluffing or value betting anything less than jacks full 16% or more of the time, it's a call.

Consider Hero's line here. It looks weak. Call the flop, check the turn, and then this bet of less than half the pot on the end, leaving you just enough wiggle-room to fold if Villain shoves. What does that look like to him? Does it look strong enough that he needs a full house to shove on the end? Could he think you're stealing, and if so, does he have it in his arsenal to re-steal? Also, why does he take the free card on the turn with such a big pot in the middle already? These things are leaving me enough doubt to think that he may have enough hands in his range that are beaten by nines full.

That said, the texture of the board does not exactly favor nines full, and it's not a snap-call by any stretch of the imagination. And of course, if you escape here with your 100K and you're right, you get to feel like a genius all night.
 
1. Fine with the preflop line.
2. Would prefer to lead out after the flop or check raise.
3. No way I am checking the turn. The pot is already a nice size and it just can lead to exactly what happened on the river.
4. Tough spot. I'd probably fold since still have 100K. You tagged him as very tight so this doesn't look like he is making some kind of move.
 
This was a terrible spot to be in. I had to tank for quite a time. I fold faceup and say that this is either best fold of the tournament or one of the worst.
An experianced player slams me and ask what the hell am I doing folding this ? Before I could answer my villain puts me out of my misery and says I cant believe you managed to get away from this and shows :qd::ad:

The table still agreed that I should never had folded. I disagree and that is why I asked you guys. Thanks for the replies!
 
When you’re beat, you’re beat. Admit it, fold it, move on. Sounds like to me you did the right thing.
 
I think pre-flop action is fine. I wouldn't be mad at a 4-bet though. Your 99 UTG after a 3-bet and a call is not the most comfortable place to be. Kinda in between a set-mining and a value... Don't hate a fold also. Same reason of being a in-between hand playing OOP against chip leader plus one.

Anyways, on the flop, I LOVE a check/raise. There's plenty of draws out there and plenty of hand that might call you that you crush. If you just call, there's too many turns you hate.

As played, I'm checking the turn almost always. No worries there. (Edit: I thought more about it and I think I'm okay with leading out turn as well. It's a balance between how many value hands will check back and how many bluffs Villain will fire again. I would expect trip Qs to bet honestly. The fact it didn't makes me think leading might be the preferred line, idk. I think there's merits to both lines)

I also like the river lead. When Villain shoves, I don't think he is doing that with anything you beat. So the question is he bluffing on that spot frequently enough to warrant a call. And personally, I don't think he is (most players aren't). I think it's a fold.
 
Last edited:
Tbh, I really dislike the slow play on the flop. I'd be looking for a check-raise all day here, and I'd be looking to shove on the turn. It may not have changed the result. He might not be able to fold TPTK on the flop (and you don't want him to) and he might not be able to fold trips on the turn, but on this line you are giving yourself a chance to get the max on better rivers, or perhaps against AA, KK.

As played if you put the river in a vacuum, it's possible to fold given how bad the A in particular is. It improves two of the hands you are hoping villian can have on the turn. (AQ, AA.) Flushes don't get there and is he really overplaying a straight here? (Can he even play KT preflop this way?) So other than an overplayed KQ (which this tight guy would have had to 3-bet pf), I think the villian is representing a full house for value, which is bad news when we have the worst full house possible. Is he really turning AK into a bluff with this short of a stack?
 
The only way I play this different is on the fold. I'm not showing that I can fold that big of a hand to anyone.
 
Number of times that I called thinking "I know I'm beat": 87,361

Number of times that I actually was beat, even though I called: 87,361

That little voice in your head plays poker better than you do. Listen to it.

One of the biggest leaps in my game came when I started listening to this very voice.
 
The only way I play this different is on the fold. I'm not showing that I can fold that big of a hand to anyone.
O'm curious here. Assuming I'm not missing sarcasm here. Do you really think folding a big hand is an exploitable hole? So you're saying you'd never ever fold a hand this big? How big does a hand have to be that you would never fold it?
I'm not criticizing, I'm genuinely curious.
 
O'm curious here. Assuming I'm not missing sarcasm here. Do you really think folding a big hand is an exploitable hole? So you're saying you'd never ever fold a hand this big? How big does a hand have to be that you would never fold it?
I'm not criticizing, I'm genuinely curious.
I'm not giving free information. I absolutely think this is a leak, and one I'll use at a cash table frequently. I love when the player shows a big fold as opposed to mucking and leaving me wondering. If I know you can fold a big hand, I'll tuck that away. If you don't show, I would have no idea how big your fold range is.
 
I'm not giving free information. I absolutely think this is a leak, and one I'll use at a cash table frequently. I love when the player shows a big fold as opposed to mucking and leaving me wondering. If I know you can fold a big hand, I'll tuck that away. If you don't show, I would have no idea how big your fold range is.
Oh, right. I wasn't thinking about the showing part. I'd never show that either. But I'd grumble so much, they'd know I folded something.
No, there's rarely anything to be gained by showing anything.
 
I'm not giving free information. I absolutely think this is a leak, and one I'll use at a cash table frequently. I love when the player shows a big fold as opposed to mucking and leaving me wondering. If I know you can fold a big hand, I'll tuck that away. If you don't show, I would have no idea how big your fold range is.

I snap-open-folded KK face-up preflop one time, in a baby-stakes PCF online tourney. It was an exceptional kind of spot. But generally, yes, this is how I feel about showing big folds.
 
Oh, right. I wasn't thinking about the showing part. I'd never show that either. But I'd grumble so much, they'd know I folded something.
No, there's rarely anything to be gained by showing anything.
I'll show a monster that no one called, and that's about it. Flopped quads and tried a small value bet and everyone folds? I'd probably show that. But I've never flopped quads.
 
You can often give information to create a wrong image. For example show a tight fold to create a tighter image.
 
Your opponent is listed as a "very tight player". You are both the two big stacks and you have enough chips to bust him.

The biggest thing I've learned is that people don't bluff nearly as much as you think they do, and big bets usually equal big hands. When you couple that with this player being listed as "very tight" I think you made the correct river fold.

I agree with Paulo and others who said you should be check-raising that flop. We're likely ahead but there's a lot of turn cards that kill our action (either slowing us down or stopping our opponents from putting money in the pot).

Aside from that, how often is a "very tight" player going to shove against you on the river on such a scary board, when they were one of the biggest stacks and you're the only guy that can bust them?
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom