Trademarked or not.......How does a chipper know? How does a MFG know? (1 Viewer)

[asian bino]

Some questions about ordering custom chips...

How does one know if an inlay/edge-spot is trademarked by either a random chipper or a casino? Or an extinct casino that has been bought...?

I'll give some examples.

If I wanted to go to CPC or whomever and get the following, would I be able to (on their mold obviously):

1. Big Top designs? (group buy /private)
2. Trump Taj Mahal design? (casino not in business...)
3. Old Palms Design (now owned by Stations) (casino in business,new owner)
4. No longer in use Foxwoods 1992 design? (obsolete, but casino still in business)
5. Designs that come up in threads here? (personal)

Does CPC care? Do other companies? What are the rules?
Are members here flattered or PO'ed if one copies their design?


Do CPC-and-similar companies keep art from projects they have done for private individuals that can be picked from the way you pick a wedding invitation? If not, why not?


Serious answers appreciated.

 

[ruskba]

For trademarked things like real casinos, CPC will probably tell you no. A designer might make some fairly subtle tweaks to make it not fall under the protection and then you’re fine.

For group buys designs, you’ll need to find out who owns the artwork and ask permission. You might be able to slip it by CPC or whoever without the owner’s permission, but if you ever get caught you’ll most likely be shunned from the community at a minimum. Don’t do this.

Edge spots are not trademarked or owned in any way. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But copying a complete set of someone’s personal design might not be received well. Copying a single chip happens often.

 

[arch3r]

Using the exact design that someone else created is a big NO-NO. You don't own it and can't/shouldn't use it. CPC, if they are aware that it is an exact copy will not produce it. They will allow designs inspired by another design. There are many tribute CPC sets that exist for defunct casinos. But it has to different enough as not to be a copy. I am currently working on a design for a quarter for my Jessie Beck Riverside set. I talked with @David Spragg at CPC and confirmed that my tribute inspired design would be acceptable for CPC to produce. Other companies may not care and produce whatever you want, but it's still not right and should not be done.

But if you want to copy exactly a previously used design, contact the owner and ask permission. If you don't know who originally had the design produced, ask. Someone here will know. The owner may be flattered and give you their blessing, or they may tell you to go pound salt. Some people pay hundreds of dollars to create their design and if you just then use it, you are stealing. And I would guess that most people here, including myself, would block and ignore you if you did that.

Basically, the design is not yours and you should not use it.

 

[asian bino]

So,

Casino stuff-----go to chip-making company
Stuff here-----Find owner and ask permission.

That helps a lot.....thanks!

 

[Perthmike]

If you are looking at going down the cpc route, I’d really recommend paying one of the designers on here to help you with a full custom inlay, rather than copying something else you like.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Some questions about ordering custom chips...

How does one know if an inlay/edge-spot is trademarked by either a random chipper or a casino? Or an extinct casino that has been bought...?

I'll give some examples.

If I wanted to go to CPC or whomever and get the following, would I be able to (on their mold obviously):

1. Big Top designs? (group buy /private)
2. Trump Taj Mahal design? (casino not in business...)
3. Old Palms Design (now owned by Stations) (casino in business,new owner)
4. No longer in use Foxwoods 1992 design? (obsolete, but casino still in business)
5. Designs that come up in threads here? (personal)

Does CPC care? Do other companies? What are the rules?
Are members here flattered or PO'ed if one copies their design?


Do CPC-and-similar companies keep art from projects they have done for private individuals that can be picked from the way you pick a wedding invitation? If not, why not?


Serious answers appreciated.

Fyi @Toby designed the BTP inlay. Rumor is he can be bribed with expensive Scotch.

 

[abby99]

Also, please don't try to slip a reproduction of a casino chip design past CPC. They are licensed to produce casino chips and need to protect their license. I'm not familiar with the other manufacturers, but as mentioned above, it's best to be up front.

 

[LinkyBabe]

Some questions about ordering custom chips...

How does one know if an inlay/edge-spot is trademarked by either a random chipper or a casino? Or an extinct casino that has been bought...?

I'll give some examples.

If I wanted to go to CPC or whomever and get the following, would I be able to (on their mold obviously):

1. Big Top designs? (group buy /private)
2. Trump Taj Mahal design? (casino not in business...)
3. Old Palms Design (now owned by Stations) (casino in business,new owner)
4. No longer in use Foxwoods 1992 design? (obsolete, but casino still in business)
5. Designs that come up in threads here? (personal)

Does CPC care? Do other companies? What are the rules?
Are members here flattered or PO'ed if one copies their design?


Do CPC-and-similar companies keep art from projects they have done for private individuals that can be picked from the way you pick a wedding invitation? If not, why not?


Serious answers appreciated.

Wouldn't it be best to get these answers from the source? That's what I did when I had my WSOP tributes made is ask CPC what I was allowed and not allowed to do.

 

[Shaggy]

You will need to provide high resolution artwork images to the manufacturer. The only way to do this with others custom sets is to get the original artwork from them. That will require permission. Screenshots or low resolution web uploads won’t provide the necessary quality. Seek out some of the great artists on this site. Let them know what you like and see what they come up with. You might be surprised how little this will cost you.

 

[pltrgyst]

Trademarks are not the only potential legal problem.

Strictly from the legal viewpoint, in the US, if a human produced it, it is protected by copyright, which is run by the Library of Congress (https://www.copyright.gov/). If that copyright has been registered with the Copyright Office, violators can be liable for *substantial* fines and other remedies. Copyright protection is typically provided for the life of the creator plus 75 years.

Then there is the US Trademark Office (https://www.uspto.gov/trademark). Trademarks are quite expensive to obtain, and the maintenance fees over the years are substantial. Plus holders of trademarks are required by law to zealously protect their trademarks, or those trademarks can be voided. Therefor the penalties for trademark violation are also substantial, as are legal defense costs. And it is not sufficient to make minor changes to avoid trademark violations -- the legal standard is the "likelihood of confusion".

Trademarks do not disappear when a business ceases operation or changes its products. They remain in force for as long as the maintenance fees are being paid.

(You can search trademarks on the USPTO Web site at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/, using TESS, the Trademark and Electronic Search System, but the search parameters and language are quite arcane. I've been retired for eight years, but that's still one of my babies, essentially unchanged.)

There are also such things in the US as "Design Patents", which (despite what's been said here) can be applied to products and designs as seemingly insignificant as poker chip spots and their colors.

That's why chip-makers are so careful about what they produce. It's a much bigger potential problem for them than it is for whoever ordered or designed the chips.

So: if you copy, you pays your moneez and takes your chances...

 

[APatHand]

Note that if you use someone else's photo/image you are likely violating a copyright on that image.
However, if you take a photo then you likely aren't violating a copyright, although a photo of a copyrighted work would likely be a violation - depending on the representation of that work.

So, if you grab images off the internet of, say, Las Vegas signs - probably violating copyright.
If you go create images of, say, Las Vegas signs, - probably not violating copyright as long as your work is a image of the sign and not the sign itself.
You don't want to go around claiming or using other's work as your own.

Copyright violations also can hinge of a sometimes hazy concept called 'fair use'.
"In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner. In other words, fair use is a defense against a claim of copyright infringement. If your use qualifies as a fair use, then it would not be considered an infringement.

So what is a “transformative” use? If this definition seems ambiguous or vague, be aware that millions of dollars in legal fees have been spent attempting to define what qualifies as a fair use. There are no hard-and-fast rules, only general guidelines and varied court decisions, because the judges and lawmakers who created the fair use exception did not want to limit its definition. Like free speech, they wanted it to have an expansive meaning that could be open to interpretation.

Most fair use analysis falls into two categories: (1) commentary and criticism, or (2) parody. "
- https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

 

[CdnBeerLover]

Note that the above rules pertain to US copyright. They may be different in other countries, and the rules of those jurisdictions may apply instead.

For example, Canadian copyright law does not recognize work-for-hire, so copyright remains with the artist if the work was created in Canada.

 

[Shaggy]

Are members here flattered or PO'ed if one copies their design?

Oh, and regarding this... I am inclined to think most members would be PO'ed if another user blatantly copied their inlay artwork. Regarding edgespot design, I am more inclined to think the user would be flattered. Specifically if the copier mentioned that they "loved" how so-and-so's chip turned out.

Regarding making similar artwork... I think if user B contacted user A and stated... "hey, I really like what you did with you set XYZ. I would like to do something similar... would you mind?" I think that would receive a much warmer response than... "hey, can I have your inlay artwork."

People spend a lot of time working out their designs. Generally the designs are very personal. To flat out copy a design a pretty poor form.

 

[Steamtrain]

This brings up the question:

How secure are our own custom?

I trust no one

 

[asian bino]

Some great input so far.

I don't play to do anything I would consider 'shady.'

I *AM* very interested in the LEGALITIES of what *I* post here, and having it taken, and what OTHERS are worried about when they are posting here.

I am sure there is a lot of artwork here that was never turned into chips...... Is @pltrgyst saying that it is COPYRIGHTED? I would think if one posts something in the public domain with no warnings/cautions/trademarks that it would definitely fall under the 'fair game/free use' category.

I also see people selling t-shirts with logos of extinct beer-brands (single location breweries that are gone 30+ years). Comments here are implying that they could be fined/prosecuted. I guess they could, but the fruitfulness is lacking....

I love some of the old Stardust/Nugget/Caesers Pal artwork from the 60s. I guess I am reading that it would have to be changed (I've seen some chipsets with alterations to XXXX's Palace here) I personally always think that looks hokey...but that's me. I'm not looking to counterfeit chips, but putting that artwork on a diffent color/mold chip interests me....maybe even on a ceramic. I guess those are questions for the chip company. Also, seeing there is no intent to market these for commercial purposes must come into play.

I will continue reading with interest.

AB

 

[justsomedude]

Some great input so far.

I don't play to do anything I would consider 'shady.'

I *AM* very interested in the LEGALITIES of what *I* post here, and having it taken, and what OTHERS are worried about when they are posting here.

I am sure there is a lot of artwork here that was never turned into chips...... Is @pltrgyst saying that it is COPYRIGHTED? I would think if one posts something in the public domain with no warnings/cautions/trademarks that it would definitely fall under the 'fair game/free use' category.

I also see people selling t-shirts with logos of extinct beer-brands (single location breweries that are gone 30+ years). Comments here are implying that they could be fined/prosecuted. I guess they could, but the fruitfulness is lacking....

I love some of the old Stardust/Nugget/Caesers Pal artwork from the 60s. I guess I am reading that it would have to be changed (I've seen some chipsets with alterations to XXXX's Palace here) I personally always think that looks hokey...but that's me. I'm not looking to counterfeit chips, but putting that artwork on a diffent color/mold chip interests me....maybe even on a ceramic. I guess those are questions for the chip company. Also, seeing there is no intent to market these for commercial purposes must come into play.

I will continue reading with interest.

AB

In general, when it comes to copying or "borrowing" designs, a good rule to follow is "just don't be a douche."

Most people here are very respectful of other folk's designs, as they understand the time and effort that goes into creating it, along with any personal/emotional meaning it may have to them. This is all in addition to the fact that a custom design also provides security for their home games and requires a sh*tload of money to procure a fully custom CPC set.

So, fear of theft/copying really shouldn't be a concern among other members of this forum. We all take this stuff rather seriously. Some folks may get inspiration from your design/style, but outright copying isn't a big risk around these parts. Most folks here are just too nice to go around lifting other people's designs.

As for direct copies of casino designs, it's a gray area and I suggest you tread lightly. A member here recently made ceramic copies of the Aria casino chips. You can read the fallout/aftermath here.

 

[pltrgyst]

....I am sure there is a lot of artwork here that was never turned into chips...... Is @pltrgyst saying that it is COPYRIGHTED? I would think if one posts something in the public domain with no warnings/cautions/trademarks that it would definitely fall under the 'fair game/free use' category.

Yes. Under US law, once it has been created and distributed in any medium or material, it is considered copyrighted. Not a registered copyright, with the added rights and penalties that entails, but copyrghted and protected.

There is a huge difference between making something public and placing it in the "public domain." You don't lose your rights because you publish. Similarly, "fair game" and "free use" are meaningless terms. "Fair use" is meaningful, but it's implications apply almost exclusively to educational, scholarly, or journalistic use.

 

[Huck]

In general, when it comes to copying or "borrowing" designs, a good rule to follow is "just don't be a douche."

Most people here are very respectful of other folk's designs, as they understand the time and effort that goes into creating it, along with any personal/emotional meaning it may have to them. This is all in addition to the fact that a custom design also provides security for their home games and requires a sh*tload of money to procure a fully custom CPC set.

So, fear of theft/copying really shouldn't be a concern among other members of this forum. We all take this stuff rather seriously. Some folks may get inspiration from your design/style, but outright copying isn't a big risk around these parts. Most folks here are just too nice to go around lifting other people's designs.

As for direct copies of casino designs, it's a gray area and I suggest you tread lightly. A member here recently made ceramic copies of the Aria casino chips. You can read the fallout/aftermath here.

a good rule to follow is "just don't be a douche."
I think this should be the golden rule of the 21st century.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

Most designers here make just enough money at our hobby to buy enough gas for a trans-continental drive to break kneecaps and fingers. So it's never been done and NEVER will be.....



Of course I jest...

*Not really...