Tourney Tourney Structure: High-Denom Turbo for Nine Dragons; er, Players (1 Viewer)

[Mental Nomad]

With the Nine Dragons group buy open, I'm considering buying chips to make for a 9-person turbo tourney. I'm not used to turbos or these high denoms, looking for advice.

Intent: chips for 9 players, each with exactly one T25,000 Gold Dragon chip. No running off colors, quick tourney (under an hour), at least three denoms.

Possible structure:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: center"]Blind Structure[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Level[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Small Blind[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Big Blind[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Antes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]24000[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: center"]Level Time = 15 minutes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: center"]Total Chips in Play = 450000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: center"]Starting Chips = 50000[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Starting stacks:
5 x T1000, 4 x T5000, 1 x T25,000, ten chips each, total T50,000

Set: 45 x T1000, 36 x T5000, 9 x T25,000, 90 chips total.

I'm looking for a small set, but one which gets some high denoms in the purchase, and gets the Gold Dragons in play. I'm afraid the very low chip count borders on unplayable, but on the other hand, it's just for a turbo.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[BGinGA]

I understand the aesthetic appeal of a nine-player tournament using a Nine Dragons chip set, but the following set break-down is good for 10 players (or nine players plus one re-buy for the first casualty), uses the same T50K starting stacks as you specified (5/4/1), and fits nicely in a single rack:

50 x T1000
40 x T5000
10 x T25000
-----
100 chips

It will also double as an awesome heads-up tourney set, with quarter-million starting stacks.


Regarding structure, I think you can do a lot better in a 60-minute time block than 25BB starting stacks with blind increases of 200%/67%/140% (averaging 136%).

Several ways to approach it. One is to use uniform blind lengths and smooth out the blind increases (or have them get progressively softer, or progressively more aggressive). Another is to shorten the blind level lengths, and use less aggressive blind increases. Yet another is to start with smaller stacks relative to the starting blinds, combined with less aggressive blind increases. Below are a few examples of each (all use T50K starting stacks).

#1 - 25BB, 133%/129%/125% increases (avg 129%), 15-minute levels:
L1 1000 2000
L2 2000 5000
L3 5000 11000
L4 12000 24000

#2 - 25BB, 100%/125%/167% increases (avg 130%), 15-minute levels:
L1 1000 2000
L2 2000 4000
L3 5000 9000
L4 12000 24000

#3 - 25BB, 150%/140%/100% increases (avg 131%), 15-minute levels:
L1 1000 2000
L2 3000 5000
L3 6000 12000
L4 12000 24000

#4 - 25BB, 67%/80%/67%/60%/50% increases (avg 65%), 10-minute levels:
L1 1000 2000
L2 1000 4000
L3 3000 6000
L4 5000 10000
L5 8000 16000
L6 12000 24000

#5 - 25BB, 67%/60%/63%/62%/57% increases (avg 62%), 10-minute levels:
L1 1000 2000
L2 1000 4000
L3 3000 5000
L4 4000 9000
L5 7000 14000
L6 11000 22000

#6 - 12.5BB, 50%/33%/50%/33%/50% increases (avg 43%), 10-minute levels:
L1 2000 4000
L2 3000 6000
L3 4000 8000
L4 6000 12000
L5 8000 16000
L6 12000 24000

#7 - 25BB, 33%/50%/33%/50%/33%/50%/33%/50% increases (avg 43%), 8-minute levels:
L1 1000 2000
L2 1000 3000
L3 2000 4000
L4 3000 6000
L5 4000 8000
L6 6000 12000
L7 8000 16000
L8 12000 24000

No matter which structure is chosen, players are almost immediately short-stacked -- it is merely a matter of degree, and how soon. However, each structure will play a little differently, and each requires a slightly different optimum strategy approach.

My personal preferences would be #5 or#7, but ymmv.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Thanks, I wasn't even considering small blinds other than 50% of the big... that opens things up a bit.

But I'm hesitant on 10-minute levels, never mind 8 minute. Maybe it's because I mostly play self-dealt cash games lately, but I can't see the table getting a single orbit before the blinds go up. Should I expect players to ramp it up when the clock is ticking? I suppose, to some degree, being short-stacked so soon just moves people to "all-in or fold" land quickly, so that speeds up the game...

Clearly, adding levels lets you smooth out the progression, but I want to make sure it's playable. I have some fear of confusing people with frequent blind changes, never mind throwing in varying blind ratios...

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

I was going to resist getting enough for ten people, even despite it not filling a box - these aren't the only Nine Dragons chips I'm getting, so the set won't be in one box, anyway - but this line is really compelling:

"It will also double as an awesome heads-up tourney set, with quarter-million starting stacks."

You may have hooked me, there...

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

It occurs to me that I can always change the structure. For now, I only have to commit to the chips.

Any suggestions on better starting stacks than 5/4/1, given the point of this set? Or have I already fallen into the "sweet spot?"

 

[BGinGA]

Any suggestions on better starting stacks than 5/4/1, given the point of this set? Or have I already fallen into the "sweet spot?"

Unless you want to commit to a whole bunch of chips, I think you nailed it.

I also wouldn't get too wrapped up in the 'less-than-one-orbit-per-blind-level' line of thinking, either. It appears 'unfair' only at face value. In reality, any blind structure that doesn't increase at the exact end of an orbit is unfair to somebody - because if blinds continue past that point without increasing, some players during the next orbit will be allowed extra blinds at the lower value while others will be forced to post higher blinds. In terms of blinds per-orbit, that's not 'fair', either.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Which begs the question of raising blinds based on orbits or hands or knockouts instead of time...

All are options for a one table tourney, even if unworkable for a multi - table.

 

[BGinGA]

Which begs the question of raising blinds based on orbits or hands or knockouts instead of time...

All are options for a one table tourney, even if unworkable for a multi - table.

Interesting.... ok, thinking out loud, and outside the box:

Based on mcjo's 20 seconds per player metric, it will take 3 minutes on average for a nine-player table to complete a hand. With 25BB stacks, I'd venture to say that you'd likely lose one or two players in that first orbit, maybe more depending on how large the pending blind jump will be (and how astute the players).

So let's call it 25 minutes tops for the first orbit to complete, leaving 7 players for the second orbit. With a 100% blind increase, the remaining players now have 16BB on average -- and I'd guess that losing another 2-4 players during L2 would be a reasonable assumption.

So let's wrap up L2 after 15 minutes leaving 4 players for the third orbit. With another 100% blind increase, those four players now have 14 BB on average. It will take about 4 minutes to play three hands four-handed, so I'd expect that just running the tournament out at this level for 20 minutes will likely produce a winner. However, increasing the blinds another 100% after 10 minutes (leaving it 3-handed with avg 9.3BB) will almost certainly end it prior to your one hour benchmark.

To summarize:
L1 - 1000/2000 (25BB), one full orbit (~25 min., expecting 7 survivors)
L2 - 2000/4000 (~16BB), one full orbit (~15 min., expecting 4 survivors)
L3 - 4000/8000 (~14BB), two orbits (~10 minutes, expecting 3 survivors)
L4 - 8000/16000 (~9BB), three orbits (~10 minutes, expecting 1 winner)

Looks good on paper, and if still heads-up after four levels (approximately an hour), bumping the blinds 100% again will certainly end it within a hand or two:
L5 - 16000/32000 (~7BB) to completion

I may run something like this at our next scheduled tournament date (15-Mar), using 5000/10000 opening blinds and T250K starting stacks (5xT5000, 5xT25K, 1xT100K). Exact same premise, just larger denominations.