Cash Game Tournament vs Cash Poker Rules (1 Viewer)

ArielVer18

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My house rules are based on Robert's Rules of Poker by Bob Ciaffone. Unfortunately, with his passing, his set of universally accepted poker rules will never be updated to modern standards.

I intend to revise my house rules so it's based on the Tournament Directors Association Rules 2022 version 1.0 (hereinafter TDA). Unfortunately, since the TDA rules and the newest WSOP rules are tournament rules, some situations do not apply in a cash game setting. However, they are the closest thing to a universally accepted modern poker ruleset we currently have.

What should I add to my cash game house rule set that will take precedence over TDA in a non-tournament setting? For example, here's a couple off the top of my head:
  • all-in players do not have to turn their hands face up until the final street is dealt
  • optional straddles are allowed
 

ArielVer18

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what type of modern standards would change robert's rules ?

Some examples:
  • using multiple moves to make a bet or raise is no longer allowed
  • taking action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered will not receive the same protection by the decision-maker as under RRoP
  • The premature turn card procedure is different
  • The procedure to receive five cards in Draw is different
  • The clock time after a player calls the clock has more flexibility ranging from 5 seconds to 30 seconds, not just a strict 60 second countdown. A decision-maker can also deny the clock request.

Not sure why anybody should have to show their hand in a cash game unless they want the pot, all in or not.

Exactly. Being forced to show your hand when all-in is a tournament only rule. It's the most obvious tournament only rule I can think of.
 
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Not sure why anybody should have to show their hand in a cash game unless they want the pot, all in or not.
I thought the rule was if they raised and got called, the actual rule is having to show if the winner asks them to, but most just muck.
 

ekricket

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Some examples:
  • using multiple moves to make a bet or raise is no longer allowed
  • taking action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered will not receive the same protection by the decision-maker as under RRoP
  • The premature turn card procedure is different
  • The procedure to receive five cards in Draw is different
  • The clock time after a player calls the clock has more flexibility ranging from 5 seconds to 30 seconds, not just a strict 60 second countdown. A decision-maker can also deny the clock request.



Exactly. Being forced to show your hand when all-in is a tournament only rule. It's the most obvious tournament only rule I can think of.

Maybe penalties for folding when faced with no action, like folding instead of checking.
Not sure if that’s a thing in cash.
Hell, not sure it’s a thing in tournaments. But I’ve seen tournament players penalized for this, but it was the same North Tulsa Casino that I’ve mentioned before.
 

DeusEx

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These are not new things, RR should cover these in some capacity

I would also applaud your due diligence! Another source that I like is Cooke's Real rules of poker on Amazon for 3 bucks

Some examples:
  • using multiple moves to make a bet or raise is no longer allowed
  • taking action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered will not receive the same protection by the decision-maker as under RRoP
  • The premature turn card procedure is different
  • The procedure to receive five cards in Draw is different
  • The clock time after a player calls the clock has more flexibility ranging from 5 seconds to 30 seconds, not just a strict 60 second countdown. A decision-maker can also deny the clock request.



Exactly. Being forced to show your hand when all-in is a tournament only rule. It's the most obvious tournament only rule I can think of.

1 Multiple moves is in RR I believe it talks about string bets / raises. This applies for both tourney and cash games

2 premature turn card is the same, the card would be held, burn turn river, card shuffled back in, then popped off without the burn

5 typically, there is no clock in cash games, if it is a house rule well then okay,




I thought the rule was if they raised and got called, the actual rule is having to show if the winner asks them to, but most just muck.
No, anyone can request the hand be exposed, some will say the dealer should 'touch the muck' but that wouldn't really kill a hand if its ordered up in some places. It should be live and if it is ordered up and wins so be it, this is why you'd typically only want the winner calling for it.

This is to expose collusion, however if it is abused by a particular person they will be awarded a penalty such asked to leave.
 

ArielVer18

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Maybe penalties for folding when faced with no action, like folding instead of checking.
Not sure if that’s a thing in cash.
Hell, not sure it’s a thing in tournaments. But I’ve seen tournament players penalized for this, but it was the same North Tulsa Casino that I’ve mentioned before.

Good point. I've never seen anyone get penalized for that in a cash game, but it's a real tournament rule.

TDA 58: Non-Standard Folds
Any time before the end of the final betting round, folding in turn if there’s no bet to you (ex: facing a check or first to act post-flop) or folding out of turn are binding folds subject to penalty.
 

ArielVer18

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1 Multiple moves is in RR I believe it talks about string bets / raises. This applies for both tourney and cash games

2 premature turn card is the same, the card would be held, burn turn river, card shuffled back in, then popped off without the burn

To expand on my first example, I learned poker post-UIGEA so blatant string raises like saying "I see your bet and raise 100 more" was already against the rule. However, it was still okay to leave one hand in the middle of the table and use the other hand to make multiple moves. I'm not 100% sure this is the correct rule to reference, but Section 14 No-Limit Rules #6 of RRoP states "a player who says 'raise' is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player’s hands come to rest outside the pot area."

TDA Rule 39 and RP-5 B: leave the turn burn card as the burn. Return the premature turn card to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the turn (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub
 

DeusEx

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Here is something for you:

Cash game - Player A is first to act on the flop, Player B is last to act; Player B moves all in on the flop, Player A calls. There is no more action throughout the hand.

Who is obligated to show the hand first?

Historically I've heard last aggressive action, I've also read unless the action occurred on after the river, it would start just left of the button and be on Player A.

For me, I would start just left of the button. I've not been able to find this in RR or Cooke's. Also this is addressed in Cooke's rules
 
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ekricket

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Good point. I've never seen anyone get penalized for that in a cash game, but it's a real tournament rule.

TDA 58: Non-Standard Folds
Any time before the end of the final betting round, folding in turn if there’s no bet to you (ex: facing a check or first to act post-flop) or folding out of turn are binding folds subject to penalty.

So we have a high hand bonus that we pay in our games. We were playing last night, and it became obvious to everyone, including the player currently holding the high hand (in the cutoff position), that the button had a full house larger than his existing high hand. So they were heads up, and the cutoff folded his hand before betting so he could retain his bonus. He was half joking but folded anyway.

I pointed out that it wasn’t really ethical, and after explaining the rule he gladly and immediately turned the high hand button over to the button player.
I didn’t think this mattered in cash and that was what a couple of them were used to.
 

DeusEx

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So we have a high hand bonus that we pay in our games. We were playing last night, and it became obvious to everyone, including the player currently holding the high hand (in the cutoff position), that the button had a full house larger than his existing high hand. So they were heads up, and the cutoff folded his hand before betting so he could retain his bonus. He was half joking but folded anyway.

I pointed out that it wasn’t really ethical, and after explaining the rule he gladly and immediately turned the high hand button over to the button player.
I didn’t think this mattered in cash and that was what a couple of them were used to.
Could the button expose his high hand after the guy folded to 'win' the high hand button?
 

upNdown

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These are not new things, RR should cover these in some capacity

I would also applaud your due diligence! Another source that I like is Cooke's Real rules of poker on Amazon for 3 bucks



1 Multiple moves is in RR I believe it talks about string bets / raises. This applies for both tourney and cash games

2 premature turn card is the same, the card would be held, burn turn river, card shuffled back in, then popped off without the burn

5 typically, there is no clock in cash games, if it is a house rule well then okay,





No, anyone can request the hand be exposed, some will say the dealer should 'touch the muck' but that wouldn't really kill a hand if its ordered up in some places. It should be live and if it is ordered up and wins so be it, this is why you'd typically only want the winner calling for it.

This is to expose collusion, however if it is abused by a particular person they will be awarded a penalty such asked to leave.
I should look up the actual rule before posting guesses. But I don’t think “anyone” can request the hand be exposed. I think you had to at least have put some money into that pot to be entitled to make that a request.
And unless there’s collusion going on, that request should never be made anyway.
 

DeusEx

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To expand on my first example, I learned poker post-UIGEA so blatant string raises like saying "I see your bet and raise 100 more" was already against the rule. However, it was still okay to leave one hand in the middle of the table and use the other hand to make multiple moves. I'm not 100% sure this is the correct rule to reference, but Section 14 No-Limit Rules #6 of RRoP states "a player who says 'raise' is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player’s hands come to rest outside the pot area."
I love it, I'd never really looked this one up, with an adequate betting line, meaning the player has room to prep a bet/raise, it is generally accepted you can EITHER verbalize a bet (and go back as often as you need) or take 1 trip. Well 1 trip to post the current bet, and another for the raise.

TDA Rule 39 and RP-5 B: leave the turn burn card as the burn. Return the premature turn card to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the turn (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub
This is NOT how most casinos would do it, and definitively not how Indiana LIVE ... err Horseshoe would handle the pre mature turn
 

glynn

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This is NOT how most casinos would do it, and definitively not how Indiana LIVE ... err Horseshoe would handle the pre mature turn
It's a recent change in TDA procedure. It will take time to propagate.
 

ArielVer18

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Here is something for you:

Cash game - Player A is first to act on the flop, Player B is last to act; Player B moves all in on the flop, Player A calls. There is no more action throughout the hand.

Who is obligated to show the hand first?

Historically I've heard last aggressive action, I've also read unless the action occurred on after the river, it would start just left of the button and be on Player A.

For me, I would start just left of the button. I've not been able to find this in RR or Cooke's. Also this is addressed in Cooke's rules

Robert's rules say Player A shows first.

RRoP Section 3 Showdown #8: If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand.
 

DeusEx

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I should look up the actual rule before posting guesses. But I don’t think “anyone” can request the hand be exposed. I think you had to at least have put some money into that pot to be entitled to make that a request.
And unless there’s collusion going on, that request should never be made anyway.
In Cooke's rules, they do address a couple of 'alternate rules' which is to say there are different ways of handling it. The verbiage they use is this,

the first rule is prevalent, but in the interest of the game it should be completely done away with.

any player who was dealt into the hand has the right to ask to see any called hand.


It goes on to offer a 'better' rule, citing only players in on the turn are eligible.

It also explains that this is not to satisfy a player's curiosity, and that a floor person should be present for the request.
 

DeusEx

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EDIT: DOH, we said the same thing.
Robert's rules say Player A shows first.

RRoP Section 3 Showdown #8: If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand.
Thats not how I read it.

If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand.

Checking and all-in are equivocal here, so first to ack would be the person that checks first (aka left of the button)
 
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TheOffalo

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So we have a high hand bonus that we pay in our games. We were playing last night, and it became obvious to everyone, including the player currently holding the high hand (in the cutoff position), that the button had a full house larger than his existing high hand. So they were heads up, and the cutoff folded his hand before betting so he could retain his bonus. He was half joking but folded anyway.

I pointed out that it wasn’t really ethical, and after explaining the rule he gladly and immediately turned the high hand button over to the button player.
I didn’t think this mattered in cash and that was what a couple of them were used to.
If the button’s hand was high enough to knock the previous high hand off contention for the bonus, presumably the cutoff didn’t have a better hand than that, since that’d qualify for an even better high hand. So how is it unethical for the cutoff to fold a losing hand even if it has the additional effect of preserving his high hand status?
 

glynn

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5 typically, there is no clock in cash games, if it is a house rule well then okay,
This isn't referring to the shot clock that some tournaments have. A clock has been available in every casino cash game I have ever played in.

If rooms are adopting TDA for their cash games, then that includes its clock rules. Any exception would then be a "house rule" in that it differs from the standard.
 

ekricket

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If the button’s hand was high enough to knock the previous high hand off contention for the bonus, presumably the cutoff didn’t have a better hand than that, since that’d qualify for an even better high hand. So how is it unethical for the cutoff to fold a losing hand even if it has the additional effect of preserving his high hand status?

He was first to act heads up, and was facing no action. Instead of checking or betting he just folded.
I think that’s not allowed in tournaments but it’s ok in cash?

I think it’s to keep people in tournaments from just dumping chips to a friendly opponent. Expose collusion. Maybe it’s something else.
 

TheOffalo

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He was first to act heads up, and was facing no action. Instead of checking or betting he just folded.
I think that’s not allowed in tournaments but it’s ok in cash?

I think it’s to keep people in tournaments from just dumping chips to a friendly opponent. Expose collusion. Maybe it’s something else.
Ah I missed the crucial fold-to-no-action part. So if CO checked, the BTN raised, and CO folded, then everything would be copacetic and CO’d still have the HH bonus, I presume. That “pre-fold” was a -EV move. :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

ArielVer18

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I should look up the actual rule before posting guesses. But I don’t think “anyone” can request the hand be exposed. I think you had to at least have put some money into that pot to be entitled to make that a request.
And unless there’s collusion going on, that request should never be made anyway.

I don't allow IWTSTH at my home game so I didn't follow the evolution of this rule. Based on a cursory internet search, the original intent is to detect collusion. However, every time I've seen anyone invoke this rule at a card room, it is to satisfy their own curiosity, not because there was any suspicion of cheating.

I think TDA Rule 18 used over a hundred words to essentially say it's no longer allowed.
 
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These are not new things, RR should cover these in some capacity

I would also applaud your due diligence! Another source that I like is Cooke's Real rules of poker on Amazon for 3 bucks



1 Multiple moves is in RR I believe it talks about string bets / raises. This applies for both tourney and cash games

2 premature turn card is the same, the card would be held, burn turn river, card shuffled back in, then popped off without the burn

5 typically, there is no clock in cash games, if it is a house rule well then okay,





No, anyone can request the hand be exposed, some will say the dealer should 'touch the muck' but that wouldn't really kill a hand if its ordered up in some places. It should be live and if it is ordered up and wins so be it, this is why you'd typically only want the winner calling for it.

This is to expose collusion, however if it is abused by a particular person they will be awarded a penalty such asked to leave.
Super interesting. So if I was raised and called on the river and show my hand, and raiser says its best, Im not allowed to ask him to show his hand? Huh, Ive misunderstood that rule for so long, thank you.
 

4SUMERZ

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At my home games. you don't have to show your hand unless you are called. If the player that calls is impatient or proud of his hand, and shows his hand first, then the player that raised does not have to.
We do use extra time buttons, but limited to 4 a night per player, and only good for an extra 30 seconds. Once it gets tossed on the table, the countdown timer is started. We play for 4 hours, then once around the table with an ante, then cash in.

I do like the rule about a turned over burn card, returned to the deck and reshuffled. My next home game will introduce that rule.
 

DeusEx

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I do like the rule about a turned over burn card, returned to the deck and reshuffled. My next home game will introduce that rule.
What?! you might have miss-understood.

Flop, round of betting, before the last player acts, the dealer burns and tables the turn face up for all to see. The issue is the last action was not complete, the card must now go back into the deck so that it has a chance to come out. To do so at this point ruins the original hand and changes the river card.

The proper procedure from here, is you complete the flop action, burn again (3rd burn card) you then table the river card. There is a round of betting, once action is complete, you then place the turn card in the deck, shuffle, cut, no burn, card comes off and face up on the table.
 

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