Tourney Tournament Structure (1 Viewer)

[cgpilot]

PCF,

I've tried to pull the answer I'm looking for out of other threads but I'm slightly confused about something. Generally we have 6-8 people, but lets use 6 people. T25 Base. Want the game to last three hours (not counting time to color up). 20 min levels but you could sell me on 15 min levels. A blind structure that looks like something like the T25 structure below on the right (stolen from @Legend5555).

Timing wise we should end around 9 levels. What should I use to figure the total starting stack? If the big blind at 9 is 800, I think I've read elsewhere to target the big blind to be 5%-10% of the chips in play.

800x20 = 16,000 (16,000 x .05) = 800
16,000 / 6 people = 2,500 starting stack (about)

Does this sound right?

 

[Mr Winberg]

Yes. If you want to start deeper you need to have shorter levels and/or a more aggressive blind structur and/or a longer tournament.

For example, with either 15 minute levels or keeping the 20 minutes but adding an hour, you can start with 6k stacks.

 

[JustinInMN]

Usually the rule of thumb is a tournament ends with about 20BB in total chips in play, with antes that number will possibly be more like 30BB.

So level 9 has the BB of 800 * 30 means T24,000 should be in play to end the tournament here. Divided by 6 players would mean a starting stack of T4K, divided by 8 players would mean a starting stack of T3K.

Now if you shorten the levels to 18 minutes, you would get 10 levels in 3 hours, which would get you to the 800-1600 level, meaning tournament would end here with T48K chips in play. Dividing by 8 players this would be a T6K starting stack, divided by 6 that would be an T8K starting stack.

Now if you shorten the levels to 16 minutes, you would get most of 12 levels played in 3 hours, getting you to the 1500-3000 level, meaning tournament would end here with about T90K in play. Dividing by 8 players, this would be a little over 11K, divided by 6 players 15K starting stack.

20 min levels but you could sell me on 15 min levels.

Normally I agree that 15 minutes are too short, and I normally advocate that 18 minutes should be the bare minimum, but you can go down to 16 minute levels if you will never be more than 8-handed, the deck should get around the table at least once per level. On the other hand, traditional antes slow the game down, so maybe stick with 18 if you can.

But for single table short tourney, I think 18 minutes with a T6K starting stack sounds pretty good.

 

[cgpilot]

Thanks @JustinInMN for taking the time to write that out. Some good ideas in there that I will experiment with when we get back to playing. The guys at my game like deep stacks so the 18 min levels might be a good path.


Thanks!

 

[JustinInMN]

Thanks @JustinInMN for taking the time to write that out. Some good ideas in there that I will experiment with when we get back to playing. The guys at my game like deep stacks so the 18 min levels might be a good path.


Thanks!

No problem, and I realize I miscounted the levels by one.

Level 10 (18 min levels in 3 hours) is 600-1200, so target chips in play would be T36K, or T6K for 6 players, T4500 for 8 players.
Level 12 (15-16 min levels in 3 hours) is 1000-2000, so target chips in play would be T60K, or T10K for 6 players, T7500 for 8 players

Also I didn't factor in re-entries, you would divide the "target chips in play" by the number of entries, not number of players, to keep the tournament on schedule if you use re-entries. (Number of entries meaning number of players plus estimate of re-entries.)

 

[JustinInMN]

Also I do love @Legend5555 's structure here. I am a firm believer in the 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 progression of each chip. If you are looking for one to cut, it could be 800-1600 and accept the 67% jump from 600-1200 to 1000-2000, but you don't have to.

 

[cgpilot]

Also I do love @Legend5555 's structure here. I am a firm believer in the 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 progression of each chip. If you are looking for one to cut, it could be 800-1600 and accept the 67% jump from 600-1200 to 1000-2000, but you don't have to.

I wouldn't mind cutting a level to help get the stacks a little deeper as long as it doesn't throw off the balance/progression too much.

 

[JustinInMN]

I wouldn't mind cutting a level to help get the stacks a little deeper as long as it doesn't throw off the balance/progression too much.

Personally, if you get 80-100 BB starting stack in a tournament that's designed to be on the shorter side, I think you are doing pretty well.

You really can't simulate a high-stakes 300BB deep tournament like the WSOP without being willing to put in more time.

 

[BGinGA]

An alternative approach is to use a more aggressive blind structure with bigger starting stacks and longer levels, while still finishing in roughly 3 hours.

The blind structure below features deep starting stacks (T10000, 200BB) with 20-minute blind levels, and will typically last no longer than 3:00 to 3:20 for 6-8 players (plus color-up breaks):

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
remove T25 chips
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L9 2000 4000
L10 3000 6000
L11 5000 10000

Although each level increase is larger, the overall blinds progression over time with this structure (10K stacks with 20-min levels) is nearly identical to that when using 10K stacks and short 16-min levels with a less aggressive 'standard' structure (although adding antes to that structure puts additional pressure on stacks, essentially making it more aggressive).

It has been my experience that when comparing events with shorter levels/smaller increases vs longer levels/larger increases, the shorter levels are generally perceived to create more of a 'rushed' feeling in an event than do the longer levels. Realistically, it's all psychological, since the two structures progress similarly over time and end at roughly the same place at the same time, but perception can often be reality.

 

[cgpilot]

An alternative approach is to use a more aggressive blind structure with bigger starting stacks and longer levels, while still finishing in roughly 3 hours.

The blind structure below features deep starting stacks (T10000, 200BB) with 20-minute blind levels, and will typically last no longer than 3:00 to 3:20 for 6-8 players (plus color-up breaks):

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75 150
L4 125 250
remove T25 chips
L5 200 400
L6 300 600
L7 500 1000
L8 800 1600
L9 1200 2400
remove T100/T500 chips
L9 2000 4000
L10 3000 6000
L11 5000 10000

Although each level increase is larger, the overall blinds progression over time with this structure (10K stacks with 20-min levels) is nearly identical to that when using 10K stacks and short 16-min levels with a less aggressive 'standard' structure (although adding antes to that structure puts additional pressure on stacks, essentially making it more aggressive).

It has been my experience that when comparing events with shorter levels/smaller increases vs longer levels/larger increases, the shorter levels are generally perceived to create more of a 'rushed' feeling in an event than do the longer levels. Realistically, it's all psychological, since the two structures progress similarly over time and end at roughly the same place at the same time, but perception can often be reality.

Thanks @BGinGA! I like it. I'll give both a shot and see what the guys think.

With the structure above do you think its neccesary to have an ante?

 

[Mr Winberg]

It has been my experience that when comparing events with shorter levels/smaller increases vs longer levels/larger increases, the shorter levels are generally perceived to create more of a 'rushed' feeling in an event than do the longer levels.

Mine too! For that reason I prefer the latter. The most extreme I've done was 25k stacks, 18 players and 30 minute levels as such:
BB
200
300
500
800
1200
2k
3k
5k
8k
12k
20k

I really liked the long levels, but I got some criticism for the big jumps from players who didn't realize how these things work.

With the structure above do you think its neccesary to have an ante?

I'm not joining this time. I'm just gonna

 

[BGinGA]

With the structure above do you think its neccesary to have an ante?

Personally I don't think it's needed or necessary. Adding a table ante will certainly shave off at least one level from the total time.

 

[JustinInMN]

I'm not pro ante in smaller tournaments either. But if you do get rid of the ante, the tournament will likely end at 20BB in play, so adjust all the calculations above accordingly.