Tourney Tournament Structure & Additional Fee Help (1 Viewer)

[AnteAndy]

I wanted people’s advice on how to restructure my poker league for next year. We launched ours for the first time back in February. Please keep in mind these guys are mostly recreational to somewhat serious players, not minding anything as long as it’s not spending a ton of money and just want to play poker.

- Tournaments will all be NLHE, BB Ante structure, $10 buyin for each tournament, along with a $2 additional to put towards the prize pool for the year’s end Main Event tournament. One $10 rebuy per player within the first three blind levels.

- Anyone can join and play through the season. Originally had people put an upfront fee at the beginning to commit to the league if they wanted, but some people couldn’t join in on time and only had to come for cash games, so thought the $2 additional would help, all just to help get the Main Event prize pool a good size.

-Starting stacks either T10K, T12K, or T15K, since we’ll be using denominations T100, T500, T1000, & T5000.

-Points will be given to players for each tournament. Originally, I had it to where you receive 1 pt for last place, 2nd-to-last 2 pts, etc progressing upward for each placement, and where the bubble gets 1 additional pt, and in-the-money places get bonus pts: 3rd = +2; 2nd= +4; 1st = +6. Also rebuying will have 1 pt deducted to your overal points for that tournament.
This time, I want to incorporate Dr. Neau’s point system. I know it’s not the absolute best as some people here say, but like I said, my players are mostly okay with anything as long as it appears fair enough at face-value.

-Best of 8/10 tournaments to accumulate points, to where the Top 8 in ranking before the Main Event can qualify for it. Top 5 will receive freeroll entry, as well as additional chips based on points, either being:

A.) 1 pt = 100 chips added (Only based on Neau point system).
B.) 1st - 10,000; 2nd - 8,000; 3rd - 6,000; 4th - 4,000; 5th - 2,000

-Top 3 finishers will earn the Main Event Pool of the accumulated $2 fees.


Now I passed this onto a local PCF’er on his thoughts about it, and he said that he wasn’t found of the $2 additional for every $10 buy in, since the “rake” is %20 of the buy in. However, I’ve lurked the site for a long while before becoming a member, and saw some people take out $10 to a $50-60 total buyin, and also that we’re doing much smaller buyins than the usual tournament buyin to make it easier for some who are not fond of paying much to play tournaments, and it’s a more social group.

Also that if people come in later in the season to play and might screw over people and make things unfair for those who join in the beginning, however with the previous season doing an up-front fee (since many who joined never played in a league, and are more familiar with playing in Fantasy Football) would help keep people committed to playing and help make the years-end Main Event pool larger than our usual tournaments and make it more exciting. And he also stated with the whole fee/”rake” situation it would make people think they no longer have a reasonable chance to make it into the Main Event, even though with our current point system (Not Neau’s currently) we’ve had people near the bottom in the beginning and not made it to currently qualifying inside the top 6.

I’m just curious on everyone’s take on this league structure and if you believe the whole fee/”rake” situation is can be reworked to have the best of both worlds.

 

[Mojo1312]

Curious. Is this a single table poker league?

 

[AnteAndy]

Curious. Is this a single table poker league?

Sorry, should've said MTT. But I will be changing up things about my league next season since my new players are becoming more accustomed to the game taking it more seriously.

 

[1A25R]

.... unclear ..


The $2 are fees? Rake? Or bonus to the main event pool? (i think you change terms along the explanation and they do not mean the same.)
How do you distribute the $10 buyin and $10 rebuy on a normal game?
It's the main event invitational /qualification only or qualifies must buy in?
How many games are planned during the year
How many places / qualifiers at the year’s end Main Event ?
how many player participate to the league and how many player in average per game?
how many games you mus play to be illegible to participate at he main event?
Main event is a single table?

 

[AnteAndy]

-As stated above, $2 fee will be towards the prize pool at the end of the year to have it inflated and become more than the usual payout amount in our regular tournaments. Did the math where is 10 people on average come to all ten games for the year, that's $20 per person totaling $200 for the Maine Event prize pool.

-Top 3 our of 13 people max receives 50/30/20% of the money in a tournament. 14 - 20 (our max players this season) receives 50/25/15/10%.

-As mentioned, the Top 8 in point ranking before the Main Event can qualify for it. Just simply receiving the most points within the Top 8 qualifies you.

-Ten games, since I'm doing the best 8/10 games for those who can't commit.
-The Top 8 in point ranking.

-Same as our regular tournaments, breaking down payout percentages for the top eight 50/30/20.

-As stated, anyone can join and play through the season. Originally for our current season, I had people put an upfront fee at the beginning to commit to the league if they wanted, but some people couldn’t join in on time and only had to come for cash games, so thought the $2 additional would help. We have average of 12 people, with 15 people registered for this season currently.

-For that, was going to propose going to at least half (5) tournaments to qualify in the Main Event, even if you might go to a few tournaments and perform well. The seat would then go to the next person down as long as they reach that minimum.

-Yes, since it will be the Top 8 ranked who will qualify and play.

 

[Legend5555]

When you say structure, do you mean just the payment structure, or the blind level structure for the tourney?

 

[AnteAndy]

Just structuring it in terms of the $2 entry fee or "rake" that's all being put towards the prize money for the main event tournament at year's end, instead of doing an upfront fee at the beginning to those who wanted to commit to the league. I did the later to be sure to be sure others wouldn't join in later and possibly jump ahead of some people , but others wanted to come join but did so too late. The other league I used to go to just this additional fee and had anyone come in to his league at any time, but had to reach certain requirements for the year end event. So I thought I'd do half the tournaments for mine, regardless of points.

 

[trigs]

I would suggest that the final main event with added cash be open to everyone instead of just the top point winners because, like you state, why would I keep playing in the regular tournaments if I have no chance to qualify for the final. Instead, just give out chips in final based on points accumulated throughout the season.

 

[AnteAndy]

My guys like playing poker, and at least they can come play in the other regular tournaments and hope to cash in one or couple of them, even if they don't make the Top 8.

Cash winnings isn't so much a big deal with my group since it's just a $10 buy in so it's not like with big stacks. But some guys like to play more seriously, regardless of stake sizes. Would also be nice to reward those with high performance overall in a season. If someone new comes in for just one tourney, even if just the ME and played no other prior tournament. Would kinda suck for that big prize to go to that person and no one else who went to most of the regular ones.

So why I'm probably gonna limit the minimum tournaments to come to in order to qualify for the Main Event to 5-6 tourneys. They can still come to any other regular tournament freely. And also not lock out most other people who couldn't make it at the beginning with the upfront fee when they now want to come play but have to wait for enough other people to arrive or tourney people to bust and hope they want to do cash after.

Don't like keeping people out or hanging, but the ME should be something special and awarded for those who made it far enough.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I would suggest that the final main event with added cash be open to everyone instead of just the top point winners because, like you state, why would I keep playing in the regular tournaments if I have no chance to qualify for the final. Instead, just give out chips in final based on points accumulated throughout the season.

When we first started league, our championship tourney only included the top ten in points. There were a lot of hard feelings from players not qualifying that had contributed to the carry-over pot the entire season. We changed to allow anyone that had played in 50% of the regular events to play in the championship. Problem solved.

 

[AnteAndy]

When we first started league, our championship tourney only included the top ten in points. There were a lot of hard feelings from players not qualifying that had contributed to the carry-over pot the entire season. We changed to allow anyone that had played in 50% of the regular events to play in the championship. Problem solved.

Would have a large crowd then. Would they all still have to buy in for championship, and did the top performers get freeroll or get certain amount of points that would factor in additional starting stack chips? Even though the idea of having more people qualify to attend, I want there to be some incentive to those who wanted to work to get towards the upper part of the point earning ranks.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Top ten get more chips. 10th gets 11,000, 9th gets 12,000 ... all the way to 1st which gets 20,000. Everyone else gets 10,000.

We also have a buy-in to sweeten the pot for the championship tourney.

 

[AnteAndy]

That's practically what we're doing this season, Top 5 gets additional chips in 200 chip intervals. Everyone was on board with it, so for this coming season and wanting to have anybody come play, just the additional chips at championship could be good and inviting enough.

 

[BGinGA]

We have the Top 8 in points qualify for the free-roll Championship table, which is funded from the nine event regular season. This is our 16th season, no complaints.

I've finished first in the regular season points four times and also won four Championship game titles, but unless a miracle happens next month at the last tournament, I won't make it to into the Top 8 and will miss the title game this season (second time in 16 tries). Won't stop me from trying.

If you don't perform well enough over nine events, you don't qualify. How can that be anybody's fault but your own, or justify hard feelings towards the format or other people?

 

[AnteAndy]

We have the Top 8 in points qualify for the free-roll Championship table, which is funded from the nine event regular season. This is our 16th season, no complaints.

I've finished first in the regular season points four times and also won four Championship game titles, but unless a miracle happens next month at the last tournament, I won't make it to into the Top 8 and will miss the title game this season (second time in 16 tries). Won't stop me from trying.

If you don't perform well enough over nine events, you don't qualify. How can that be anybody's fault but your own, or justify hard feelings towards the format or other people?

I always liked this structure, very similar to what I'm doing this year. But ultimately i bring it across to my players to what they're interested in, makes them happy, and keeps them coming.

It's good to have all these ideas to put in front of them and see which wants to do what. I'm a cash player, but most of the regular players I'm around like tourneys more.

 

[TexRex]

I would not call that a rake for several reasons. First, it isn't a rake! It's money towards a big game prize pool. Second, "rake" might attract the attention of the wrong people (like law enforcement and the local DA's office). If you call it a rake, you've given them a reason to do it. If you can't distinguish it from a rake, they aren't going to do that for you. Third, calling it a rake might discourage players who would otherwise come, especially those who don't want to be at a game that might be raided. Even if they get off for not doing anything illegal, who needs the hassle, especially over a low $ game?

One idea for your ME (I assume means Main Event?) if you want it to be open to outsiders, but reward high performers ~

Say Players 1-8 have performed well enough to compete if you did some sort of final table, play-your-way-in tournament. Players 9-30 want to play in the ME. You could have it open to all, but only Players 1-8 split that prize money. You could designate money for those players with up to an 8 person payout. I'll use Payouts of 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 as an example, representing proportional payouts. Say 3 of those players make the final table. Those 3 get 8, 7, and 6. The other five divide the rest evenly, in this case 3 each. That rewards those players for their past performance, and how they do at the ME. The rest of the ME money is paid out however you set it up. Thus those 3 who make the final table would also get whatever money they earned from the rest of the prize pool.

A variation might be those 8 compete for that money, but not every spot gets a payout. You could do something like the top 3 places determined by their order of finish. A variation of that is they must make the final table (FT). If none of them make the FT, then the money is equally divided by those who show up for the ME.

If not all 8 of those eligible could come, adjust the payouts a little for those who do. I'd have a rule that you must be present to win.

Here are some advantages (no particular order):

• As the host, if you weren't one of those 8, you still get to play.
• You have a special tournament that will draw people who might not otherwise play.
• Those who performed well still get rewarded for their past performance.
• You could have everyone who comes pay the same amount. My experience is players feel like that is fair because everyone paid the same to get in.
• Your other players who didn't qualify still get to come to the special event and are treated like all the others who maybe only come to that one game.

Something we do for our ME is the entry fee is 2x our normal fee, and payouts are 2x as well. We have a few who come to that who consider the other games too small. I give the regulars first shot at the ME. They can put down a deposit to reserve their place. At some point, the deposit becomes nonrefundable. Our ME has worked well by being an open event. Sometimes we have someone who only comes to that, brings a friend, and that friend becomes a more frequent player, maybe even a regular.

 

[Mojo1312]

Unless the blinds double between level one and level two, players start out with 50 to 75 big blinds. What is achieved by having a BBA?

Everyone has an opinion on how to best run a league. I am in favor of seasons that consist of more than 10 games. I also favor a format that encourages and rewards player participation over a hierarchical point system geared towards rewarding the strongest players.

Charging a membership fee upfront in the amount of $10 is the simplest way to set up the league. Impose a $5 fee to non members who want to play. After two games, they become a member. This way, everyone in the league knows how much money is in the ME prize pool and it will increase the size of the pay-outs for the regular season tournaments by 25%. Win-win. You can also put aside half of a player's re-buy towards the ME jackpot.

Award players 500 points for each tournament they play in. Give each player a chip that is passed on to the player who knocks them out of the tournament. Each chip collected is worth 200 points. Player A busts three players before being eliminated. He relinquishes his chip and cashes out with three chips worth a combined total of 600 points. You can modify the structure to fit your league by raising the participation points to 1000 per game and the knock-outs to 500, or whatever you desire.

Convert the points to bonus chips for the ME at the end of the season. Top 8 point leaders secure their spot in the Main Event. (Top 9 if the league is comprised of an odd number of players.) The remaining six players (for example) can have the opportunity to play in a run off tournament for $10. The final three earn a spot into the Main Event plus a 500 chip bonus. Twelve players are in, three players are out - after having two opportunities to gain a seat into the ME.

Accounting for 15 players and twenty to thirty re-buys spread over ten tournaments, plus the nine $10 buy-ins into the Main Event (11 buy-ins if the point leader is awarded a free seat) and the $60 collected from the six player satellite, the size of the prize pool will be $390 to $450. ($440 to $500 if you move to twelve tournament's a season.)

 

[AnteAndy]

@Mojo1312 This is very similar to what we are doing currently. We all like BBA, especially since we feel it helps shorten the tournaments since we do Turbo, around 4-5 hours, since we all have families and careers to be able to be there a whole night.

We did a $20 up front fee in the beginning for the end of the year Main Event (ME), that way the pool would be around double or more the usual payouts in our regular tourneys. If we did $10 for every person, outside of non-members once in a while doing $5, the ME pool won't be as big, and I like the idea of players working their way up to freeroll in it.

But I do like the rebuys being toward the ME, or maybe put half of it in the pool. Although we hardly have that many people rebuy into our tournaments.

Points are rewarded for each tourney placements, which helps qualify the top 8 into playing the ME. Top five points earn freeroll and additional chips in increments of 200 (since we have starting stacks at 1000), w/ 1st in rank receiving 2000, 2nd receiving 1800, etc. Very top points earner before the ME receives 25% of the whole ME prize pool.

The points in your structure for regular tournaments are interesting, though want to keep the points numbers rounded down to tens than hundreds just to not overwhelm people and easier for people to follow.

I like some of the other ideas, though, so thanks for the input.

 

[Gobbs]

If you don't perform well enough over nine events, you don't qualify. How can that be anybody's fault but your own, or justify hard feelings towards the format or other people?

I could not agree more!! If a player can play just a couple tournaments and have enough points to knock me out of the Championship tournament, then I stink for the season and deserve to be watching from the rail.

If others perform better than me. They deserve it, I don’t.

Performance matters. Only the best performers should play in the Championship.