Tournament Rules: When does the next blind level start? (1 Viewer)

[LotsOfChips]

If the blind timer expires after a hand has ended (last round of betting over, cards shown if more than one player still live) but before the next round of cards has been dealt, is the next hand played at the old blind level or the new one?

This question has come up at a few different tournaments that I have played in, and there seems to be a variety of opinions, seemingly depending on hosts preference. I haven't been able to find anything from Mr. Google on the topic. Some possible variations could include playing the next hand at the smaller blind if:

• the hand in play is dead before the timer expires (no more betting action possible)
• table is ready to deal the next hand (pot has been cleared from the playing area, cards have been returned to person shuffling)
• one blind has been posted before the timer expires
• both blinds have been posted before the timer expires
• the first card has been dealt before the timer expires

Obviously it is a bit annoying when the big blind is putting in the smaller amount before the timer expires, but then gets hosed when table talk, slow dealer, (insert favorite annoying delay here), etc. causes him to have to put in the larger amount. Not such a big deal early in a well structured tourney, but when the blinds double late in the tourney (yeah, lousy structure, I know) and many players are short stacked it kind of sucks.

So what is the official ruling (or is there one), and what do most players here do?

 

[Saoliver]

@BGinGA

 

[Beakertwang]

My only experience has been, if the dealing begins before the blind level ends, it's at the current level. The clock keeps running during the hand, and blinds go up next hand.

 

[CraigT78]

both blinds have been posted before the timer expires

This is how I run it - if both blinds are out - deal it.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Depends on whether or not the blinds were posted in our game. If posted, current round, but if the clock expires and they weren't posted, then blinds are up.

 

[BGinGA]

When the blind timer sounds, the next hand uses the new blind amounts.

And every hand begins with the first riffle of the shuffle. If this has already occured when the timer sounded, then the old blind amounts are used. (For multi-deck games, our rules use the cut as the beginning of the hand, since cards are typically shuffled ahead-of-time). But if the first riffle (or cut) has not occurred, then the new blind amounts apply.

Posting the blind amount -- or not posting -- by player(s) is totally irrelevant, and is probably the most abused 'rule' in home tournament poker. It's not a variable situation based on player hand speed or diligent observance, but rather a fixed and repeatable point in time (the beginning of a hand).

 

[smsguy927]

From the 2019 TDA Rules:
"23: New Hand & New Limits A new level starts on announcement after the clock reaches zero. The new level applies to the next hand. Hands begin on the first riffle, push of the shuffler button, or on the dealer push. If a hand starts at the prior level by mistake, the hand will continue at the prior level after SA occurs (Rule 36)."
As far as home games are concerned, I would use the first riffle in dedicated dealer games and when the first card has been dealt in pass the deal games to determine when the hand has started. In both home games and poker rooms, I feel very strongly that posting blinds has NO effect on when the hand starts and whether the blinds go up. I frequently have to tell my players in my room about this.

 

[trigs]

Most games I play at we say as long as blinds are posted before the timer goes. It's common to hear "Get your blinds in!"

 

[DeeVee8]

Most games I play at we say as long as blinds are posted before the timer goes. It's common to hear "Get your blinds in!"

I can't tell you how quickly players will post blinds if that means they get one more hand.

 

[grebe]

Depends on whether or not the blinds were posted in our game. If posted, current round, but if the clock expires and they weren't posted, then blinds are up.

THIS is the way. AND....shuffle from behind. Just sayin'

 

[timinater]

When the blind timer sounds, the next hand uses the new blind amounts.

And every hand begins with the first riffle of the shuffle. If this has already occured when the timer sounded, then the old blind amounts are used. (For multi-deck games, our rules use the cut as the beginning of the hand, since cards are typically shuffled ahead-of-time). But if the first riffle (or cut) has not occurred, then the new blind amounts apply.

Posting the blind amount -- or not posting -- by player(s) is totally irrelevant, and is probably the most abused 'rule' in home tournament poker. It's not a variable situation based on player hand speed or diligent observance, but rather a fixed and repeatable point in time (the beginning of a hand).

Came here to say this. This is the answer. We also use first cut in a two deck system to mark the start of a hand.

That said...

When the blind timer sounds, the next hand uses the new blind amounts.

Extra emphasis on this. No need to split hairs, just up the blinds you cheapos.

 

[doughboy63]

I have never read TDA, so I was surprised by the riffle starting the next hand. It makes a lot of sense actually. We typically, incorrectly, do the whole if both blinds were posted before the timer goes off it’s stays at the lower level for that hand. I love this site, learn something new everyday.

 

[CraigT78]

both blinds have been posted before the timer expires

After @BGinGA has corrected that this is indeed wrong, if I changed it - there would be a very real possibility of a riot and a table being flipped over.

 

[BGinGA]

It's a good definitive rule, and prevents those silly whining shenanagins of "But I already posted!!" Allowing it opens up all sorts of stupid shit like people trying to pre-post several hands in advance. The blinds go up when they're supposed to go up -- deal with it.

Yeah, you posted alright, but you posted the *wrong* amount -- get with the program and stop trying to cheat.

 

[MrCatPants]

I can't tell you how quickly players will post blinds if that means they get one more hand.

I've had people almost hurt themselves.

 

[LotsOfChips]

So it seems that there is the "right" way (thanks for the info @BGinGA & @smsguy927), with hands starting at the first riffle or on the cut when using two decks). Then there is the way many people play, based on house rules, and including some variation of blind(s) posted, card(s) dealt, previous hand dead (not posted above, but definitely the rule at one game I've played), or whatever the TD/host says. No wonder I was confused.

When hosting I'm going with the TDA rule, and if the question arises at someone else's game I can now give them the correct information (not that it will necessarily change the way they do things).

Thanks for the posts, all!

 

[APatHand]

Most home tournaments I've played in will play at the old level if one of the blinds it out when the new blind level is announced.
All of the casino tournaments I've played it will play at the old level if the dealer has riffled the cards at least once when the new blind level is announced - washing them does not count.

I prefer the casino method.

 

[LotsOfChips]

It's a good definitive rule, and prevents those silly whining shenanagins of "But I already posted!!" Allowing it opens up all sorts of stupid shit like people trying to pre-post several hands in advance. The blinds go up when they're supposed to go up -- deal with it.

Yeah, you posted alright, but you posted the *wrong* amount -- get with the program and stop trying to cheat.

Not trying to cheat by posting early, but it is pretty frustrating when you have posted the blind, the other blind has posted, there is 10 seconds left on the clock, and the new dealer is holding the deck in his hand and talking about the bad beat he took three hands ago (or whatever other shit he is doing). Then the timer goes off and he makes you post the bigger blind because the house rule is based on cards dealt.. Deal already!!

 

[APatHand]

Not trying to cheat by posting early, but it is pretty frustrating when you have posted the blind, the other blind has posted, there is 10 seconds left on the clock, and the new dealer is holding the deck in his hand and talking about the bad beat he took three hands ago (or whatever other shit he is doing). Then the timer goes off and he makes you post the bigger blind because the house rule is based on cards dealt.. Deal already!!

In this case, smack the dealer.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Posting the blind amount -- or not posting -- by player(s) is totally irrelevant, and is probably the most abused 'rule' in home tournament poker. It's not a variable situation based on player hand speed or diligent observance, but rather a fixed and repeatable point in time (the beginning of a hand).

I couldn’t agree more. I hear this quoted over and over again. Hard to stop even after stating the correct method.

 

[toynoob]

After @BGinGA has corrected that this is indeed wrong, if I changed it - there would be a very real possibility of a riot and a table being flipped over.

Let it begin Craig!

 

[Taghkanic]

In a self-dealt, two-deck game, how does the riffle rule work

To move things along efficiently, I normally hope that the next deck will already be well on the way to having been shuffled and cut/or at least ready to be cut, by the time the existing pot is raked and other deck cleared aside.

That way, you can proceed straight to the next hand.

Could someone clarify for this scenario?

 

[BGinGA]

In a self-dealt, two-deck game, how does the riffle rule work

To move things along efficiently, I normally hope that the next deck will already be well on the way to having been shuffled and cut/or at least ready to be cut, by the time the existing pot is raked and other deck cleared aside.

That way, you can proceed straight to the next hand.

Could someone clarify for this scenario?

As previosly mentioned above, in a two-deck scenario, the best way (imo) is to declare that the beginning of a hand is when the deck is cut. It's a definitive step that is taken on every hand, and the last dealer action before he/she starts delivering cards.

Proper dealer protocol is to deliver the pot, move the dealer button, then wash, shuffle, cut, and then begin dealing the cards. My dealers are instructed to announce the current blind amounts during the cut.

 

[Poker Zombie]

While BG has the correct rule (first riffle), It is one of the few TDA rules I do not follow in my self-dealt games.

Why? Because the dealer can be slower to riffle (or to cut as we also use 2 decks), especially while pulling a pot. This allows for an angle-shoot of a big stack putting a little extra pressure on a short stack. It is for this reason, that if either blind has been posted or the deck has been cut, the hand has officially begun. It would take 3 players to collude against a short-stack, a far less likely scenario.

Note: you may not "post" a blind before the previous hand has concluded, which means awarding the pot. I have one guy that will always try to post prematurely, so you have to be on your toes for such behavior.

 

[APatHand]

Note: I have one guy that will always try to post prematurely, so you have to be on your toes for such behavior.

Hence the riffle rule.

 

[Gobbs]

While BG has the correct rule (first riffle), It is one of the few TDA rules I do not follow in my self-dealt games.

Why? Because the dealer can be slower to riffle (or to cut as we also use 2 decks), especially while pulling a pot. This allows for an angle-shoot of a big stack putting a little extra pressure on a short stack. It is for this reason, that if either blind has been posted or the deck has been cut, the hand has officially begun. It would take 3 players to collude against a short-stack, a far less likely scenario.

Note: you may not "post" a blind before the previous hand has concluded, which means awarding the pot. I have one guy that will always try to post prematurely, so you have to be on your toes for such behavior.

While I agree with the premise, I still don’t like the house rule changing when a new level starts. (I don’t like most house rules that deviate from accepted rules, though.) I think it tries to regulate one (kind of rare) instance of a larger set of issues.

For example, as dealer, I can not intentionally stall to “artificially” raise the blinds early with the house rule, but I can certainly do that as a player. I can take several seconds or maybe even a minute to make a decision with my big stack, knowing the blinds will go up soon and hurt the shorter stacks. So, the house rule really doesn’t prevent anything, it just takes away one method of doing it.

To me, this is one of those situations in which it’s better to leave the standard rule in place (since I’m big on rules being the same across the board as much as possible) and the players/TD will self-police any angle-shooting by dealers. A player may get by with stalling one time. He/she may even get by with it twice since the situation presents itself to a specific individual quite rarely (especially with a rotating deal) and people may not remember the last instance. After that, players aren’t going to stand for it. I think the benefit of standardized rules outweigh the potential confusion of a house rule and the very small benefit of having it.

 

[Darson]

Since we rotate dealing and sometimes the person dealing is a stoner, we use blinds posted rule. I don't see why this is such a big deal unless you have a significant amount of dead time between hands increasing the likelihood of the blind timer expiring in that small time window.

 

[Frogzilla]

If your home game uses two decks “the first ruffle of the shuffle” for the start of the next hand doesn’t make sense. By that definition two hands are going on concurrently most of the time.

Pot shipped and blinds posted is how I’ve always seen it done

 

[Gobbs]

If your home game uses two decks “the first ruffle of the shuffle” for the start of the next hand doesn’t make sense. By that definition two hands are going on concurrently most of the time.

Pot shipped and blinds posted is how I’ve always seen it done

That’s why, when using two decks, the cut is the magic point in time.

 

[EnjoyLife]

We just go by if the next blinds were already post or not. Definitely not from an official rulebook. That being said, it's been years since I played