Tournament preflop raise sizing (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

Inspired by the comments in this thread https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/tournament-hand-from-last-night.89395/

I assume my preflop raise sizing is too static, though I don’t think it matters much. If I’m opening, it’s generally about 3x regardless of position or holdings, live or online. It’s not written in stone, and it can vary with table dynamic and might go down to 2x as stacks get shorter.
But anyway, in that thread, I said that 2.5x felt like a small open to me, and another guy said it seemed too big. I’m just curious to hear opinions on the topic and see if there are consensuses that I’m missing.

 

[kmccormick100]

Std strategy these days is a 2.5x (to maybe 3x) open early in the tourney when stacks are deeper, with a 2x raise becoming std once avg stacks are smaller later in the tourney. Anything over 3x as an open is considered too big by standard strategy.

 

[Defarse]

This is what I tend to use:

100bb+ = 3x
75 -100bb = 2.75
50 - 75bb = 2.5
30 - 50bb = 2.1/2.2
15 - 30bb = 2

 

[Jake14mw]

Following. I thought 3x was the standard in the old days, and higher was becoming the norm now.

 

[Frogzilla]

My understanding is that it is mostly a function of how the big blind is defending. Usually the BB gets pretty tight once you near the bubble (as they don’t want to play marginal pots) so you can drop down to 2x easily. There are some other specific stack size/ICM considerations but it’s mostly big blind (and in weak fields feel free to vary based on who the BB is…not on your specific hand strength).

My default pre adjust is 3x deep, down to 2-2.5x shallower

 

[Defarse]

Following. I thought 3x was the standard in the old days, and higher was becoming the norm now.

I think 4x/5x in the old days and it has become much lower now. A lower amount still gets the job done without risking too much if someone plays back at you. And as the stacks get shorter the lower raises still have a comparable stack to pot ratio vs deeper stacks.

 

[Highli99]

I just bet Pot.

Oh wait, that’s PLO.

And I’m playing cash.

Holdem tournies are tough. I heard on a podcast everybody is doing 2.5x. I guess someone did the math on that, but if everyone is playing a certain way I have to imagine that creates potential exploits. This is an area I am understudied.

 

[Mandos]

I know this is a bit dated, but the general guidelines in Little's Secrets of Tournament Poker are the following, which aligns pretty well with what's already been said here:

• <12bb all in
• 12-40bb: 2.25bb
• 40-70bb: 2.5bb
• 70-125bb: 2.75bb
• 125bb+: 3bb

Obviously that's just a baseline that can change based on other factors.

 

[ArielVer18]

3x
2.75x
2.5x
2.4x
2.25x
2.125x
2x

Depends on a lot of things, like average stack size, my stack size, position, who's defending, etc.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Inspired by the comments in this thread https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/tournament-hand-from-last-night.89395/

I assume my preflop raise sizing is too static, though I don’t think it matters much. If I’m opening, it’s generally about 3x regardless of position or holdings, live or online. It’s not written in stone, and it can vary with table dynamic and might go down to 2x as stacks get shorter.
But anyway, in that thread, I said that 2.5x felt like a small open to me, and another guy said it seemed too big. I’m just curious to hear opinions on the topic and see if there are consensuses that I’m missing.

It depends on what I'm trying to accomplish and to a lesser extent, what I'm holding.

If there's been a limper, I like to push it to around 4 BBs to sort of 'buy' position and hopefully get heads up against the limper. If I'm opening, I like to keep it static at around 2..5-3x in order to avoid bet-sizing tells.

This won't be popular, but I've never understood the logic of the min-open. Even if it folds around to the BB, you're laying 3.5-1 (and worse ~4.5-1 if there are antes) on a call and even better odds if there's other action. The BB is going to be incentivized to call a lot of the time just based on the price they're getting.

 

[upNdown]

3x
2.75x
2.5x
2.4x
2.25x
2.125x
2x

Depends on a lot of things, like average stack size, my stack size, position, who's defending, etc.

On the one hand, this is the answer that draws me in the most. Because when tournament questions come up, my answers usually include something like “Depends on a lot of things, like average stack size, my stack size, position, who's defending, etc.” But it occurs to me that generally I don’t apply as much thought to preflop opening sizes until we’re in ICMville.

But on the other hand, I guess I don’t put a lot of thought into it in the early and middle stages of a tournament because seriously, all this 2.6 shit? Really?
Maybe somebody can convince me there’s a good reason to consider units smaller than .5bb, because I can’t imagine it matters that much or that your average non-wizard even notices such small increments.

 

[Frogzilla]

It depends on what I'm trying to accomplish and to a lesser extent, what I'm holding.

If there's been a limper, I like to push it to around 4 BBs to sort of 'buy' position and hopefully get heads up against the limper. If I'm opening, I like to keep it static at around 2..5-3x in order to avoid bet-sizing tells.

This won't be popular, but I've never understood the logic of the min-open. Even if it folds around to the BB, you're laying 3.5-1 (and worse ~4.5-1 if there are antes) on a call and even better odds if there's other action. The BB is going to be incentivized to call a lot of the time just based on the price they're getting.

Bb has worse range and is OOP post

 

[upNdown]

Bb has worse range and is OOP post

Yeah, I have to agree with that. I’ve found 2x raises to be surprisingly effective later in tournaments.

 

[Defarse]

This won't be popular, but I've never understood the logic of the min-open. Even if it folds around to the BB, you're laying 3.5-1 (and worse ~4.5-1 if there are antes) on a call and even better odds if there's other action. The BB is going to be incentivized to call a lot of the time just based on the price they're getting.

If everyone at your table is sitting with 25bb later in a tournament and you are raising 3x preflop, you are going to get jammed on a ton and have to fold a lot which you will be losing an extra big blind over a min open which is a lot considering stack sizes. And big blind calling isn't a bad thing.

 

[Mandos]

If everyone at your table is sitting with 25bb later in a tournament and you are raising 3x preflop, you are going to get jammed on a ton and have to fold a lot which you will be losing an extra big blind over a min open which is a lot considering stack sizes. And big blind calling isn't a bad thing.

It's worth pointing out that this is exacerbated if half the table has less than 12BB and are in shove/fold mode. At that point a min raise is often enough to steal.

 

[LeLe]

I know this is a bit dated, but the general guidelines in Little's Secrets of Tournament Poker are the following, which aligns pretty well with what's already been said here:

• <12bb all in
• 12-40bb: 2.25bb
• 40-70bb: 2.5bb
• 70-125bb: 2.75bb
• 125bb+: 3bb

Obviously that's just a baseline that can change based on other factors.

This is the baseline that I follow as I been practicing a lot on Tourney online, but I tend to reduce it even lower as there is way more callers in Tourney as compared to Cash

• <12bb all in
• 12-40bb: 2 bb
• 40-70bb: 2.1 bb
• 70-125bb: 2.2 - 2.5bb
• 125bb+: 3bb

 

[PokerDogDoc]

It's worth pointing out that this is exacerbated if half the table has less than 12BB and are in shove/fold mode. At that point a min raise is often enough to steal.

The common practice as professed and taught by Jonathan Little is that the tiered open raise should be based on the effective stack size of potential hands in the pot… this might be your stack, but is often that of your opponents. This helps avoid the unnecessary loss of additional chips to the re-raise shove by the short stack. Realize that you’ll still lose your open-raising chips to the shove (assuming you fold), but you’ll just lose less of them.

 

[legonick]

I'm a fan of 2.5x raises, which seems to be the standard. Also, toss on another x if there are limpers that you have no read on or don't have a strong suspicion of trapping. SB, BB, a late position limper, you OTB, raise to 3.5x.

Also, I think you need to raise more in live play generally, to get the job done, when it's early in the tournament. 3x probably, so long as you aren't afraid of getting shoved on.

Also it does seem like 2x raises work when stack sizes are smaller. I need to experiment more with this, and incorporate it into my play. It's probably a leak to not adjust opening sizes later in the tournament.

 

[Belgian_Aler]

Is it correct to size up when out of position when the stacks are deep? Is there any difference between playing cash vs tourney when it is early and you have a rebuy?

 

[Defarse]

Is it correct to size up when out of position when the stacks are deep?

Do you mean size up 3 bets when in SB or BB? If so, yes.

 

[Belgian_Aler]

Do you mean size up 3 bets when in SB or BB? If so, yes.

I mean opens too. I usually charge more if I first open UTG vs from the button. Maybe 3.5x or 4x OoP and 3x IP early on with deep stacks.

Maybe it isn't right since a raise from early position signifies that I have a strong range.

 

[upNdown]

I mean opens too. I usually charge more if I first open UTG vs from the button. Maybe 3.5x or 4x OoP and 3x IP early on with deep stacks.

Maybe it isn't right since a raise from early position signifies that I have a strong range.

Part of the problem with any strategy thread is that we're all at different levels of our own poker educations, and none of that speaks to the guys you're actually playing against. I'd like to think that if I open UTG, that's telling the table I HAVE A STRONG HAND. But more often than not, at my stakes, there's probably more than one person at that table who doesn't give the first thought to that sort of thing.

 

[Belgian_Aler]

Part of the problem with any strategy thread is that we're all at different levels of our own poker educations, and none of that speaks to the guys you're actually playing against. I'd like to think that if I open UTG, that's telling the table I HAVE A STRONG HAND. But more often than not, at my stakes, there's probably more than one person at that table who doesn't give the first thought to that sort of thing.

Sure. So my question is, is sizing up optimal when playing against GTO robots to make them pay for the chance to play in position? Or is it not optimal because your raise already carries the threat of a strong range?

 

[upNdown]

Sure. So my question is, is sizing up optimal when playing against GTO robots to make them pay for the chance to play in position? Or is it not optimal because your raise already carries the threat of a strong range?

(I'm not that far along in my poker education)

 

[legonick]

Disclaimer - not good at poker!

I'd think a smaller open UTG is better. Because it signifies strength, it means you're more likely to get it through, without risking as many chips. But you also don't have info. on the rest of the table, so someone coming in bigger later is saying "I see your strong hand, and shove it! My QQ/KK/AA are good here." If you raised big and get stomped by this big raise, you'll be folding off a lot more chips. So it seems like smaller raises are better UTG. When you don't have it, you can shut it down depending on the villain raising. When you do have it, you almost want someone to attack your smaller open, so you can shove on them. Seems like small raise UTG is a bit better maybe?

 

[CrazyEddie]

I'm not convinced anyone has a reasonable theory of opening sizing.

Solvers like a sizing of 2x from all positions. But I'm not convinced that anyone should ever play solver solutions in live games, since solver solutions are only correct when playing against solvers. While solvers still do very well against non-optimal opponents, there are a few places where exploitive play can do even better, and we should strive to recognize those spots. Opening sizing is one of those spots, IMHO.

My thoughts are that in a live game, sizing should depend on the table and probably not depend on position. The goal should be to use the largest possible size that will still allow weaker holdings to call. If you're opening, you should have reason to believe that your hand is stronger than the remaining field, and so accordingly you should want as much money going into the pot as possible. To judge what size will maximize your equity (by getting large calls from weak hands) you'll need to observe the table dynamics and adjust your sizing as you keep playing. If the table is tight, bet small to keep them from folding; if the table is loose, bet large to get more of their money in play.