Tournament hands that you played wrong. (1 Viewer)

[SiouxperStack]

I recently played in a MSPT event in which I finished, probably, 10 outside the money. I bagged a small stack for day 2 right around 115k. I estimate I have to survive an hour and a half to make the money and 115k would most likely get me to a min cash.

Blinds are 3000 - 6000 6000

UTG raises to 18k (stack is less than mine)

I have 55 in middle position and I elect to call

BB now also calls (has me covered by 50k)

Flop comes 7c 6c 4h

UTG bets 18k again and I shove. BB tanks and calls and UTG also calls. Up against UTG’s AcQc and BB Kc3c. Turn is a 4d and river is Kh.

Do most of you just fold preflop or shove preflop in this case?
I’m also curious about how many of you rethink the mistakes made in events weeks after it’s ended.

 

[Legend5555]

This is a fold pre flop. The small pairs are generally just trash when you are under 25-30bb. I wouldn't even call with them for a min raise. You have position which is nice, but calling invites so many 3 bets behind you and jams from similar stacks as yours.

I'd also never call with nearly any hand in this situation.

Given the raise came from UTG, it's even a dicey spot going up to 77 or 88. I think 99 is pretty clear jam, as is AQo+. AJs is borderline and probably a fold in this configuration given the full 3x raise.

 

[upNdown]

I’m probably fold, shove, call there, with fold being far far more likely than the other two. But not sure what your stack size was.

For me, the bad beats haunt me more than when I played a hand badly, which seems strange. But I usually know when I played a hand badly, I let it piss me off for the rest of the day, then I move on, because I know I’m human and I will make mistakes. But when I get knocked out of a tournament, deep, because of a stupid bad beat, it haunts me.

 

[SiouxperStack]

This is a fold pre flop. The small pairs are generally just trash when you are under 25-30bb. I wouldn't even call with them for a min raise. You have position which is nice, but calling invites so many 3 bets behind you and jams from similar stacks as yours.

I'd also never call with nearly any hand in this situation.

Given the raise came from UTG, it's even a dicey spot going up to 77 or 88. I think 99 is pretty clear jam, as is AQo+. AJs is borderline and probably a fold in this configuration given the full 3x raise.

Yeah you’re right about the hand being a fold considering it’s a call from a UTG bet. If you’re in mid position and haven’t faced a raise do you still fold 55?

 

[4SUMERZ]

 

[upNdown]

Yeah you’re right about the hand being a fold considering it’s a call from a UTG bet. If you’re in mid position and haven’t faced a raise do you still fold 55?

Most likely. There are factors - has it been a limpy table; can a limp see a flop? Or is there some big stack who’s just punishing everybody? Are there any short stacks behind you, who are ready to jam the first ace they see?
I guess my truth is that in many stages of a tournament, I’m much more concerned with the situations than the cards.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

2006 World Poker Open in Tunica. $1000 preliminary event. Almost to the bubble. Played some of my best poker ever. Had my table covered. Till we lost one and they moved another player to our table who had me covered.

All I had to do was be smart and I make money. First orbit he’s there we both end up all in. And I’m walking to the buffet wondering WTF did I just do. Still get pissed thinking about it.

I raised, he reraised. I felt he was trying to bully the table and especially me since we both had more than double any one else at the table.

So I pushed all in thinking he would fold. It was a bad read and bad decision on my part. He called, his AK held up against my AQ.

I’m sure I’ve made worst plays but none that cost me like that one did. 16 years and still pissed.

Oh, he went on to final table and made a crapload with my chips. LOL

 

[Legend5555]

Yeah you’re right about the hand being a fold considering it’s a call from a UTG bet. If you’re in mid position and haven’t faced a raise do you still fold 55?

Possibly. Once you are in the LJ, you can probably get away with opening minimum with 66+. 55 is borderline. Though you can technically jam 33+ profitably from the LJ for 19bb. It's near the bottom of the range though, so you aren't getting that much from it. And that ignores all table dynamics and ICM.

I'd probably min raise 66+, QTs+, KTs+, most suited Aces, KJo+, ATo+, and fold most hands to a 3 bet.

I have no clue what the actual opening range should be though.

 

[JMC9389]

Fold> shove> call preflop in this case, IMO

 

[beyondtilt]

JJ always

 

[TheDogg]

I actually don't think this hand was played terribly, I don't see anything terrible with it. Even after everything is shown OP has like 50% equity at least.

I think some aggressive players might shove sometimes preflop there, especially if their vpip has been low for a while.

Ante is big so there's merit to being more aggressive.

 

[Frogzilla]

For my first ever live cash deep into a 3000 runner $400 wsop circuit, about 150 remaining…I’m sitting just under average stack.

I held on a flop. The chip leader to my right bet into me. I raised. He 3 bet. I called it off. He held and I “held” (he was hella live) but that was an overplay for sure.

Not all mistakes bust you, yolo

 

[legonick]

2006 World Poker Open in Tunica. $1000 preliminary event. Almost to the bubble. Played some of my best poker ever. Had my table covered. Till we lost one and they moved another player to our table who had me covered.

All I had to do was be smart and I make money. First orbit he’s there we both end up all in. And I’m walking to the buffet wondering WTF did I just do. Still get pissed thinking about it.

I raised, he reraised. I felt he was trying to bully the table and especially me since we both had more than double any one else at the table.

So I pushed all in thinking he would fold. It was a bad read and bad decision on my part. He called, his AK held up against my AQ.

I’m sure I’ve made worst plays but none that cost me like that one did. 16 years and still pissed.

Oh, he went on to final table and made a crapload with my chips. LOL

This makes me feel better as I folded AQo to a tight, ABC player who raised 3x UTG with I think 7 or 8 at the table last night. Tournament, hyper.

It haunts me because I just didn't have many hands all night. QQ, AKs, AQo, 99, 44...and that's it. So I was thinking about shoving there...but I figured the only hand he'd make that move with that I was ahead of is AJ. I'd seen him make a similar play with KK and JJ earlier in the night. He also could have had AK there easily.

 

[legonick]

Not sure if this one is played bad, but 2 table hyper. AsKs, OTB with very short stack, like 6 BB. UTG open shoves. UTG+1 calls, all-in. Folds around to me, I call, all-in. Up against TT and 88. Could I find a fold here? With that short a stack, and that much raw hand, just no freakin' way. But also basically no way I'm NOT up against at least a pair here. In hind sight, I easily could be in a bad situation, up against say JJ and AQ, with that blocker putting me in bad shape.

Anyways, the runout puts me on tilt and knocked me out. It was TxTc and 8x8c. Flop comes AcXcXx. Turn, another club. River, of course, case club, TT wins it all. Grumble! LOL. But at least the best hand wins it there...just don't give me an A on the flop if you are going to sun run clubs with a blocker out there! LOL.

 

[upNdown]

This makes me feel better as I folded AQo to a tight, ABC player who raised 3x UTG with I think 7 or 8 at the table last night. Tournament, hyper.

It haunts me because I just didn't have many hands all night. QQ, AKs, AQo, 99, 44...and that's it. So I was thinking about shoving there...but I figured the only hand he'd make that move with that I was ahead of is AJ. I'd seen him make a similar play with KK and JJ earlier in the night. He also could have had AK there easily.

Good move, I'd say. AQ just isn't a calling hand (especially against an ABC UTG) unless you think you're going to catch somebody speeding.

 

[ilovegravy]

Rungood Deepstack at the Horseshoe in Council Bluffs, IA back in Feb, 5 players left and I'm the chip leader by a small amount. Ran a big bluff on the guy on my left recently. After he folded he said something about how he thinks I've been making moves on him all day and he's getting tired of it.

Action folds to me in the SB with Ah8h and I raise 3x. BB calls.

Flop A T 5 rainbow.

I bet about half pot, BB calls.

Turn offsuit Q.

I check, BB bets a tiny amount, like 1/6 pot maybe. For some reason, I spaz out and check raise to almost the full pot amount. BB tanks for a minute and shoves. I thought about it for what felt like forever. About half my stack was in the middle, and I convinced myself he put out the small bet as a blocker bet to get to showdown cheap with a Q and is now shoving because he's sick of my shenanigans. I called. He had QT and I didn't improve on the river. Busted two hands later for 4th place.

Be gentle.

 

[SiouxperStack]

2006 World Poker Open in Tunica. $1000 preliminary event. Almost to the bubble. Played some of my best poker ever. Had my table covered. Till we lost one and they moved another player to our table who had me covered.

All I had to do was be smart and I make money. First orbit he’s there we both end up all in. And I’m walking to the buffet wondering WTF did I just do. Still get pissed thinking about it.

I raised, he reraised. I felt he was trying to bully the table and especially me since we both had more than double any one else at the table.

So I pushed all in thinking he would fold. It was a bad read and bad decision on my part. He called, his AK held up against my AQ.

I’m sure I’ve made worst plays but none that cost me like that one did. 16 years and still pissed.

Oh, he went on to final table and made a crapload with my chips. LOL

Damn. That’s why people call AQ the parking lot hand. That’s a tough one

 

[beyondtilt]

D All the above

 

[SiouxperStack]

Not sure if this one is played bad, but 2 table hyper. AsKs, OTB with very short stack, like 6 BB. UTG open shoves. UTG+1 calls, all-in. Folds around to me, I call, all-in. Up against TT and 88. Could I find a fold here? With that short a stack, and that much raw hand, just no freakin' way. But also basically no way I'm NOT up against at least a pair here. In hind sight, I easily could be in a bad situation, up against say JJ and AQ, with that blocker putting me in bad shape.

Anyways, the runout puts me on tilt and knocked me out. It was TxTc and 8x8c. Flop comes AcXcXx. Turn, another club. River, of course, case club, TT wins it all. Grumble! LOL. But at least the best hand wins it there...just don't give me an A on the flop if you are going to sun run clubs with a blocker out there! LOL.

That’s the only play. You were a big favorite going to river.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Damn. That’s why people call AQ the parking lot hand. That’s a tough one

Yep. I’m still pissed. I knew better.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Good move, I'd say. AQ just isn't a calling hand (especially against an ABC UTG) unless you think you're going to catch somebody speeding.

That’s what I thought I was doing in my hand. LOL.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

5s is a reasonable shove if the details were right. Many solid players open somewhat wide in early position but will make big folds for 20bb resteals because so there are so many beginner players in the field who will only reshove very very tight ranges.

If Ive been playing tight, think the initial raiser is competent / cares about the money and has an opening range of 20% or more (ie: includes weak offsuit broadways, some suited connectors and some non Broadway offsuit aces), I go with it.

Against that 3bb open though… I’d just fold. More likely to be on the stronger side, and less likely to make a big fold IMO.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

Possibly. Once you are in the LJ, you can probably get away with opening minimum with 66+. 55 is borderline. Though you can technically jam 33+ profitably from the LJ for 19bb. It's near the bottom of the range though, so you aren't getting that much from it. And that ignores all table dynamics and ICM.

I'd probably min raise 66+, QTs+, KTs+, most suited Aces, KJo+, ATo+, and fold most hands to a 3 bet.

I have no clue what the actual opening range should be though.

The thing about being able to profitably open shove 19bbd (as a theoretical issue) is that it requires you shove the top of your range too which you most definitely are not. The fact that it’s profitable alsp doesn’t mean that it’s better than a regular raise. Those push/fold charts shouldn’t be used until you’re at a stack size where you wouldn’t do anything but push/fold.

Also, theoretical opening range is overrated live or any situation where you have enough info to make good reads. There are 3 people behind you and their inclination to call or 3bet can vary wildly - these are way more important than slight differences in hand strength. Ie: If people are a bit too tight and passive, raising with a bad hand is a lot better than raising with a borderline “optimal open” when people are restealing a bit too loose.

 

[upNdown]

The fact that it’s profitable alsp doesn’t mean that it’s better than a regular raise.

In a vacuum, I'd agree. But if you have 19bb and you're making a "regular raise" from middle position with pocket fives, you must be an optimist.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

And yet it’s often better than a shove. Because people shouldnt (and often aren’t) calling as if you have 55–>AA and the corresponding unpaired hands.

You will sometimes get looked up by pairs that are folded in a Nash equilibrium because some people rightfully recognize that you just don’t open shove your big pairs. You’re still getting a lot of folds and not everyone will make that adjustment but the ev of that 55 shove is incredibly thin in the Nash push/fold equilibrium for 20bbs - so getting called slightly more than Nash makes it a net loser.

Could people be overfolding? Sure. It’s hard for them to be overfolding by much though because the optimal call ranges are pretty tight. And if they are overfolding vs a 20bb shove then they’re for sure playing too tight against the open raise and probably playing nitty enough postflop that getting flatted isn’t really that bad.

 

[Legend5555]

And yet it’s often better than a shove. Because people shouldnt (and often aren’t) calling as if you have 55–>AA and the corresponding unpaired hands.

You will sometimes get looked up by pairs that are folded in a Nash equilibrium because some people rightfully recognize that you just don’t open shove your big pairs. You’re still getting a lot of folds and not everyone will make that adjustment but the ev of that 55 shove is incredibly thin in the Nash push/fold equilibrium for 20bbs - so getting called slightly more than Nash makes it a net loser.

Could people be overfolding? Sure. It’s hard for them to be overfolding by much though because the optimal call ranges are pretty tight. And if they are overfolding vs a 20bb shove then they’re for sure playing too tight against the open raise and probably playing nitty enough postflop that getting flatted isn’t really that bad.

That's why I was saying on 20bbs, I don't typically open jam. Now if I'm the big stack and there are 20bb or less stacks to act behind (depending on how many), I do just open jam a lot of stuff because of rather just put them to the test than raise and get jammed on. Not to say I jam or fold only in those spots mind you.

One everyone is under 30bb, you can play a lot of hands as opens instead of jams since any raise of typically putting a lot of pressure on people.