I know that, but its easier to send money without being hounded to pay fees and you can do a ahit ton of transactions without it being locked up whereas PayPal starts putting holds and "regulations reviews" if your activity becomes excessive.
Tournament bank discrepancy (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter k9dr
- Start date
Really? So when the banker gets stifffed, he should pay out of his pocket? Then why would anybody ever be banker?
You do extra work, assume all liability and receive no reward?
I could see saying the banker is responsible for his mistakes. I don’t like it, when he’s not getting paid for his work, but I can see it. But holding a volunteer responsible for somebody stiffing the game? THAT’S what I’d call scummy AF
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
As to this whole principle over money thing - to each his own, but unless it’s a pattern, I don’t like it. This is a non-profit home game. Blame the host or the banker if you want, but I say everybody assumes the risk equally and if you don’t trust them to run it well, don’t play.
I’d send back your percentage of the 40.
I’d send back your percentage of the 40.
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No paypal fees if you can read/comprehend simple instructions.
And don't think for a minute that venmo won't be putting holds on your account when you reach the daily/weekly limits.
Of course not, and neither should the winners get shorted. The banker needs to collect what's owed, and make the winners whole. Shorting the winners is BS.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
If the banker is making the decision as to whether or not someone is playing, he is vouching that he has paid, or is vouching for his creditworthyness. That way each player only has to trust the banker. Otherwise it would be perfectly legit for all players to insist on the proof of all other players and it would descend into a mess.
The lesson the banker needs to learn here is money up front, if that is the case here.
Easier to avoid the issues since Venmo doesn't just default to a fee based payment like PayPal tries to do. I bet half the players do it accidentally because PayPal defaults to G&S. I'm not running high rollers. We run $20 buy in events a couple times a week and haven't had an issue with Venmo which I've been using since it came out. The other day on PayPal I sent an $80 payment for chips and it says the payment needs to be reviewed for regulations lol. I'm not saying Venmo is the end all be all but it's a hell of a lot better than PayPal for the purpose of running low stakes poker events. *In my opinion, of course
*
Venmo won't let me send more than $5k per rolling week. I have to PayPal my other admin and have him Venmo players. It's a pain. No wonder money laundering is so profitable
With the group that I've been playing online with during the quarantine, all money must be sent to the TD/banker before the tournament starts otherwise the TD/banker has accepted the fault of a player not paying (which hasn't happened yet). We're just doing little $5 tournaments but some have been rebuys. Every player just sent TD/banker like $20 and if they lose it all they send another $20 or something like that. Some players send $5 at a time too though. As long as TD/banker is organized, it's not an issue. And if you don't pay ahead of time, TD/banker boots you from tournament.
Granted, we all know each other more or less and many of us have played together for years.
Granted, we all know each other more or less and many of us have played together for years.
detroitdad
Royal Flush
I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with everything that you said.
I host once a month. I'm also the banker in most cases. If my bank comes up short I eat it. This has happened a few times. If its a decent loss, then usually a couple of the winners will chuck in a few bucks to help out.
Once my bank was short an entire buy in ($100 bucks). I obviously didn't collect a buy in somewhere. Now, at no point did I think it was malicious, I forgot to collect, and someone forgot to pay. That was resolved the next day when the person realized that he had more money than he should have.
If I know I'm going to be over indulging in bourbon. Then I will ask @Marc Hedrick to run the bank. If/when he does, he understands that any losses are his (there never have been, and I would still share the loss with him).
I'm think this is just personal philosophy and that there isn't a correct answer.
It's never happened when I've hosted. I remember it happening once in my buddy's game - the bank came up short $40. There was a sketchy guy there that night, so I think I know what happened. But I was the big winner that night and told the host to take $20 out of my winnings. I think another winner did the same, but I'm really not sure.
If you want to be a standup guy when you're the host, and accept responsibility, that's great.
If you want to be a standup guest when you're a winner and help keep the host from getting screwed, that's great too..
Like I said, I'm pretty sure neither of us is right or wrong.
detroitdad
Royal Flush
Me tooI'm right
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
I think you and I really have different assumptions here and it's a question worth exploring. When you buy into a game, are you making a transaction with the banker or with everyone else in the game.
Our disagreement I believe comes down to this question.
Players are taking risks in the game too and now they have to take a risk that someone the host invited is going to stiff the bank too?
It's an easier system imo if everyone just trusts the bank and the bank takes that responsibility. And I agree, it really sucks that there is no upside to be the bank because the bank can't take any reward in the present legal environment (thankfully in our group, we have a good culture of tipping the host)
But if the assumption is that everyone covers everyone, I think that's a chilling effect on who is willing to play in games that is also unesirable.
As host and banker, I always am willing to eat the loss if there is one. Once it happened in my game. Luckily it wasn't a huge amount, and I did have a winning player offer me a little money back but that's just the price you pay for hosting/banking the game. I have also been to a game that host found cash was short at the end and I offered some of my winnings to him to make up. However, I don't expect players to do that as it is my fault as banker if the money doesn't add up properly.
Great point. And I don't think the answer is simple, especially in the context of this thread.
In a home game situation, everybody has paid for the chips they're playing with, so there's a bit more certainty.
In these online/paypal tourneys, it's usually the opposite, at least in my experience - everybody signs up, they start playing, and then somebody collects the money. Ideally in the online situation, the host/banker is vouching for everybody playing. But realistically, that's not always a fair proposition. And lets forget about one guy stiffing the banker for a moment - what if paypal seizes all the money and holds it for a day, a week, a year, or forever? Should the banker pay everybody out of his pocket, then wait to recover the funds?
If the banker set up the tournament, invited all the people, chose the method of payment - had made all the decisions top to bottom, yeah, I suppose he's on the hook. But situations differ. A lot of times, these are "clubs" and people who never really made any decisions, take turns being the banker. If the shit goes down on the night you happen to be banker, should you get screwed? I don't know. Was the idea that everybody takes turns assuming the risk? Or was the idea more like we're a club all playing poker together, lets hope nothing goes wrong?
Back to the home game situation. If a guy runs a game, invites you to his game, and then takes your money in exchange for chips, I guess I can't argue with you expecting him to make good on that transaction. But in real life, I'm the guest, and I'm going to a guy's house every week to play in a game that he's hosting out of the goodness of his heart, and he happens to get screwed, I'm going to help him out.
This whole narrative is a long way of giving you the same answer I just gave detroitdad - I'm not sure there's a right or wrong answer here. Hopefully everybody is good people and they work shit out. The practical truth is that the law isn't getting involved - you're not going to win a court case over a home poker game - so it really is the wild west in a way.
But if you want a yes or no answer - no, I don't think I have a transaction with a banker in a game that isn't raked. I think I have a transaction with the game.
Frogzilla
4 of a Kind
My real take:
In an unraked game, you get what you pay for. As a player in an unraked game you should expect to run into a little bit of risk/inconvenience from time to time. If it were my 2nd place prize money
-$3.50 from fees: annoyance but I let this one go
-PayPal note: yes I complain and explain why it’s dumb. I personally have made this same error exactly once on PCF tourneys and I’ll never make it again (sorry again BG)
-extra $40 that needs to be refunded: I wait an hour then ask what exactly happened here, I wait another hour then send back $12. Make him sweat it enough that he realizes he needs to take collecting more seriously next time
In an unraked game, you get what you pay for. As a player in an unraked game you should expect to run into a little bit of risk/inconvenience from time to time. If it were my 2nd place prize money
-$3.50 from fees: annoyance but I let this one go
-PayPal note: yes I complain and explain why it’s dumb. I personally have made this same error exactly once on PCF tourneys and I’ll never make it again (sorry again BG)
-extra $40 that needs to be refunded: I wait an hour then ask what exactly happened here, I wait another hour then send back $12. Make him sweat it enough that he realizes he needs to take collecting more seriously next time
Moxie Mike
Full House
Forward to today, I get a text that someone is claiming they only had one rebuy and not two, so the bank is $40 short and I should send some of my winnings backTo me it is not about the money, it is the principle. Ultimately it is the responsibility of the banker to insure the accuracy of the bank. I do not know if there are any records or logs that can be referenced after the fact for definitive proof. Without proof, I do not feel compelled to refund any money. I do know I am very unlikely to play with this group again unless these issues can be fixed.
I host all the time. When someone messes up the PPF&F thing, I absorb the fee the first time and send a polite reminder - with the understanding that a couple bucks isn't a big deal amongst friends. It's never been a lingering issue - in fact no one has made the same mistake twice I don't think.
So if I understand correctly, the host collected and distributed funds based on what he collected, only to have a player later tell him he inadvertently sent in too much money because he didn't have as many rebuys as he thought he did? So the host refunded the $40 to the player and then contacted you via text to collect the overpaid funds?
Assuming the player really did overpay, as host I would verify with the software (if possible) and then issue the appropriate refund to that player. At that point, I think it's fair for the host to explain to the winning players that that the bank was wrong due to an honest error and they were overpaid as a result. As host, I wouldn't want to absorb the $40 and I think it's reasonable ask for a reimbursement. Furthermore, I were a winner in the game I wouldn't want to collect winnings I wasn't entitled to at the expense of the host.
It sounds like the host isn't running a very tight ship - I'd probably look for a different game in your spot.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Yeah I could see your point if you are really rotating the banking duties that there would be a sense of everyone being in it together.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. But at the same time, if I don't have any control over the invite list (and I don't presume to if I a guest), then I don't think I need to be responsible for other players either if the host has trusted the wrong person. Granted, it's much easier to be accurate IRL than processing buy ins online.
I don't mind this approach as a middle ground either, but I think the OP has the right to make sure the banker does his due diligence, not just send a text.
PayPal FF or not, Poker Mavens pays whatever the percentages are of the prize pool. That's what should get sent to you. Period. There's not need to determine the rebuys or anything - PM does this all for the banker. Whatever is in your account balance is what's due to you.
If the banker added $40 to a player's account even though they only really sent in $38.50 b/c of F&F, that's not your problem. The banker needs to work this out with the players, but the winners must be paid the exact value of their balances.
If the banker added $40 to a player's account even though they only really sent in $38.50 b/c of F&F, that's not your problem. The banker needs to work this out with the players, but the winners must be paid the exact value of their balances.
OP
OP
I am waiting on the host to access the tournament log and verify the accuracy of the information. Certainly, if I owe any money I will pay.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I have to disagree with the "no right or wrong" concept. When money is involved, there is always a right and a wrong.
The banker assumes all responsibility. I host a regular home game, and I am always 100% responsible. I collect the money, I distribute the money. The players count on me to collect the full amount. They deserve to be paid the correct amount. There is no grey area here.
As the host, I am responsible for chips, cards, the table, lighting, music selection, climate control... everything. I am responsible for the invites. Nobody enters without my say-so. I take all responsibility. If you invite a friend that turns out to be a douche, that reflects on me. It is my responsibility to tell you not to re-invite him. It may be unpleasant, but it is my job. I do not get paid or collect a rake. In fact, because I serve food, I am running at a loss if I "break even" in poker.
It is the host's job to do that. It is the banker's responsibility to collect the money and hand it back out.
It is the same way online. Someone decided to host the game. Yes, it can be a little more difficult as the program can re-distribute rebuys with a click, but one person is still in charge. If you don't want to accept that duty, don't take it. Nobody is forcing you to host.
This isn't to say that the banker doesn't have grievances with those that underpaid, but that's his duty to iron it out - not the guests.
If someone overpaid (i.e. typo) their buy-in, would the banker redistribute that to the winners? Hells no! It is the banker's duty to give it back to the player that overpaid, and make sure the winners are all paid exactly what they should be paid.
The banker assumes all responsibility. I host a regular home game, and I am always 100% responsible. I collect the money, I distribute the money. The players count on me to collect the full amount. They deserve to be paid the correct amount. There is no grey area here.
As the host, I am responsible for chips, cards, the table, lighting, music selection, climate control... everything. I am responsible for the invites. Nobody enters without my say-so. I take all responsibility. If you invite a friend that turns out to be a douche, that reflects on me. It is my responsibility to tell you not to re-invite him. It may be unpleasant, but it is my job. I do not get paid or collect a rake. In fact, because I serve food, I am running at a loss if I "break even" in poker.
It is the host's job to do that. It is the banker's responsibility to collect the money and hand it back out.
It is the same way online. Someone decided to host the game. Yes, it can be a little more difficult as the program can re-distribute rebuys with a click, but one person is still in charge. If you don't want to accept that duty, don't take it. Nobody is forcing you to host.
This isn't to say that the banker doesn't have grievances with those that underpaid, but that's his duty to iron it out - not the guests.
If someone overpaid (i.e. typo) their buy-in, would the banker redistribute that to the winners? Hells no! It is the banker's duty to give it back to the player that overpaid, and make sure the winners are all paid exactly what they should be paid.
If gunmen broke in and robbed your game - took the whole bank - would you pay each player out of your pocket?
I have a feeling you're going to say yes, and good for you if you felt the need to fulfill that obligation. I appreciate people who take responsibility. What I'm saying is that every single player who took a penny from you in that situation would be a giant asshole, in my opinion. Because whether or not you want to admit it, you weren't robbed personally, the game was robbed.
Not sure that example applies. The banker/host decides who the players are and controls the collection and disbursement of funds. A robbery is an external influence out of the control of the host (unless the robbery is due to their negligence).
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Let's break down your concept 3 ways.
- Gunmen barge in mid-tournament and take everything. Game over. No winners, no payout. Police report filed. It is still my responsibility, as game security is my business. I am responsible, and would pay the buy-ins out if players asked. However, I doubt any player would ask. We all saw the guns. We were all victims. The gunmen didn't just steal the money, they stole my responsibility.
- Gunmen wait at a near-by gas station and robs the winner. This is beyond my responsibility. Nobody would disagree. He took your money.
- Thief steals the cashbox. I don't notice until the tournament concludes. More than likely, I would think I misplaced it. I would pay out the winners and shit bricks looking for the cash afterwards. I might even post a thread here about it. But under no circumstance would I contact the winners and say "Look, I never found the money. You must send back your winnings."
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And unless I'm mistaken, Venmo is cell phone only, does not run on computers, so many people won't use it.
You can check your balance and account settings via PC but all cash transfers have to be done via cell phone.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
I had this thought as an example of why you could be right, and I don't think any player would expect me to make them whole. And I do think grant made the right counter argument below
Sadly I had that experience, I was keeping the bank in my pocket and I thought I lost it, so I paid everyone out of my personal bankroll. Found the money was deep in a different pocket an hour after everyone left. I now have a locking cabinet with my cash and chips.
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/my-poker-host-stand-a-cabinet-named-erik.31467/
ekricket
Royal Flush
If the robbers just took the chips could the host then keep all the money since the bank is now “over”?
how come nobody starts a thread “My Bank has $300 Extra, What Should I Do?”
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