Tournament bank discrepancy

k9dr

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
9,470
Reaction score
23,755
Location
Florida Gulf Coast
I played in an online tournament with a group of local guys, most I know, but a few new players too. This was a $40 buy in tournament with two $40 rebuys allowed. I was not the host nor was I the banker. There were 10 original buy ins + 8 rebuys making the total prize pool $720 split 50%-30%-20%. I came in second and should have received $216.

Apparently, there was an issue with people sending in their buy ins and rebuys via PayPal but not using Friends & Family. The banker refunded those payments and asked people to resend via F&F. This is where things first got screwed up. The next morning I receive payment of $212.50 instead of $216 with the explanantion that he was deducting PayPal fees from the winnings. I explained it was the responsibility of those who did not pay by F&F to send additional money to cover the fees.

Additionally, when I received the payment via PayPal it showed "NLHE Tournament 2nd Place" in the notes :eek: I explained to him that was a good way to get our PayPal accounts suspended.

Forward to today, I get a text that someone is claiming they only had one rebuy and not two, so the bank is $40 short and I should send some of my winnings back :banghead: To me it is not about the money, it is the principle. Ultimately it is the responsibility of the banker to insure the accuracy of the bank. I do not know if there are any records or logs that can be referenced after the fact for definitive proof. Without proof, I do not feel compelled to refund any money. I do know I am very unlikely to play with this group again unless these issues can be fixed.
 

Forty4

Full House
Tourney Director
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
4,137
Reaction score
4,048
Location
Rochester, NY
Most software I’ve seen tracks the buy ins. What software/app?
 

Forty4

Full House
Tourney Director
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
4,137
Reaction score
4,048
Location
Rochester, NY
I would think there is a tournament “lobby” that should show you buy ins. But I have not used that so can’t say for certain.
 

Poker Zombie

Royal Flush
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
13,161
Reaction score
24,025
Location
Nashville-ish
Like any financial shortage, it should be the banker that makes up the difference, not the players. Not knowing how many rebuys, that is inexcusable on the part of the TD.

I too, would not feel compelled to return the money. I might even counter with a request for the rest of what I was owed. That said, I would put a lot more weight on the friendship I have with the person asking. If they were a good friend, I'd send the money (with appropriate grievances). If it was an unknown...
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
5,312
Reaction score
12,191
Location
Casa Mango, FL
These situations suck. And we recently had one with a lost rebuy in the mix. I will just say that you are absolutely right that "it is the responsibility of the banker to insure the accuracy of the bank", but we also have to take take into consideration that they arent a casino, they arent making money, a lot of people are new to paying with Paypal for online games, they have to go through the time and effort of this on a good day and on a bad day track down people who are being a pain in the butt, and in the end they are most likely just trying to do the right thing even if it is flawed.

After our situation we actually made it a shared responsibility to keep track of buy-ins/rebuys since we couldn't figure out on PokerStars where to find that info.

Honestly in this situation I would probably just eat the $4, not return any more of the winnings and give the game one more shot, but help the banker get the word out how Paypal works.
 
Last edited:

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
5,312
Reaction score
12,191
Location
Casa Mango, FL
Like any financial shortage, it should be the banker that makes up the difference, not the players. Not knowing how many rebuys, that is inexcusable on the part of the TD.

FWIW in every other financial situation the banker is a business and making a fee or a percentage. Unless the banker was taking a rake in this game they were just doing it on good will. It is a definite distinction, although I don't know how it effects the outcome here.
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,268
Reaction score
38,601
Location
Atlanta
@CraigT78 has previously mentioned logs on PokerMavens that can provide needed details to the host -- maybe he can chime in here.

The banker is responsible for collecting (and distributing) the correct amounts. On PCF's home games, any payments received via G/S are not refunded (because PP now keeps the G/S fees on refunds, thus shorting the receiver), but rather the sender is requested to additionally send the fee amount via F/F. The bank typically doesn't send out winnings until all payments are received, and winning payments are *never* shorted.

Players are responsible for ensuring their fiscal liability is received -- in full -- by the banker, and are liable for any fees incurred by doing so.
 
Last edited:

madforpancakes

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
734
Reaction score
1,566
Location
Seattle, WA
Poker Mavens has all of this info saved in the post tournament log. Here is an example from a rebuy tourney I ran a couple weeks ago. This lives in the C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Poker Mavens 6\TourneyResults

Tournament=Saturday Night $40 Rebuy
Number=8
Currency=Primary
BuyIn=40+0
PrizeBonus=0
MultiplyBonus=No
Entrants=28
Late=5
Tickets=0
Removed=0
Rebuys=8
AddOns=10
RebuyCost=40+0
NetBonus=0
StopOnChop=No
Start=2020-04-04 19:04:23
Place28=Genimamura (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place27=Z-Money (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place26=Shasti (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place25=SydNasty (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place24=LuckyDucky (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place23=BabyAnt (0) Rebuys:1 AddOn:Yes
Place22=WoOdY (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place21=Migs (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Place20=MeanPanda (0) Rebuys:1 AddOn:No
Place19=Brian (0) Rebuys:1 AddOn:No
Place18=Stephanos (0) Rebuys:1 AddOn:Yes
Place17=Deez (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Place16=Alicia (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place15=Kory (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place14=Sri (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place13=silent_bob (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Place12=John (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Place11=Dan (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Place10=Matt (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place9=Zach (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place8=Aschofield (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place7=PokerWiz (0) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place6=ChkRaise (129) Rebuys:0 AddOn:No
Place5=Steemer (147) Rebuys:2 AddOn:No
Place4=KevP (202) Rebuys:1 AddOn:Yes
Place3=Aldea (276) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Place2=GreenLantern (423) Rebuys:1 AddOn:No
Place1=Torrey (663) Rebuys:0 AddOn:Yes
Stop=2020-04-04 22:34:39
 

timinater

Flush
Site Vendor
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
2,729
Location
SESKATCHWAN
If there is an obvious and traceable error with the rebuy and prize amounts, you were never owed the money in the first place, so certainly do your part in correcting the error. The "host" will need to show their work, however. If you want to be a real stickler you could deduct the $4 or whatever you feel you were shorted.

Sounds like the first time someone has run this perhaps, I'd extend them some grace and go along to get along. The glitches are obvious, so I'd also offer to lend a hand to draft up some guidelines on payouts, rebuy protocol and those sorts of things.
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
4,078
Location
Burnsville, MN
Apparently, there was an issue with people sending in their buy ins and rebuy via PayPal but not using Friends & Family. The banker refunded those payments and asked people to resend via F&F. This is where things first got screwed up. The next morning I receive payment of $212.50 instead of $216 with the explanation that he was deducting PayPal fees from the winnings. I explained it was the responsibility of those who did not pay by F&F to send additional money to cover the fees.

Additionally, when I received the payment via PayPal it showed "NLHE Tournament 2nd Place" in the notes :eek: I explained to him that was a good way to get our PayPal accounts suspended.

You are right on all counts here.

Forward to today, I get a text that someone is claiming they only had one rebuy and not two, so the bank is $40 short and I should send some of my winnings back :banghead:

I might consider this if he can show the actual logs from the tournament demonstrating this. But if he's trying to use a calculation error to cover that he got stiffed, that's sketchy. If someone stiffed the banker, that's on the banker, not you. The Banker essentially let someone play on credit and is trying to make you assume the risk without your consent.

If the Banker made a mistake in calculation and can back it up, then I could see paying that portion back. But based on his decision to just take $3 for something that happened through no fault of your own, I'm not terribly inclined to cooperate unless he can prove it.
 

LotsOfChips

Flush
Joined
Jul 10, 2019
Messages
1,249
Reaction score
1,430
Location
Chilliwack BC
The Tournament log shows each person's results and number of buy ins, but that may only be a portion of the picture. Event logs in Poker Mavens will show each account transaction (initial deposit, entry and rebuy withdrawals, tournament winnings deposited, end of game withdrawals, etc). There is a tool posted in the Online Home Poker thread (and on the PM website) that allows you to filter the event log, as it can be quite daunting to find info otherwise.
 

Josh Kifer

Royal Flush
Site Vendor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
12,464
Reaction score
28,872
Location
PNW
Well this sounds like a shit show and it's why I don't do rebuys or PayPal on Tourneys online. It just complicates the shit out of everything.
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
4,078
Location
Burnsville, MN
Forward to today, I get a text that someone is claiming they only had one rebuy and not two, so the bank is $40 short and I should send some of my winnings back :banghead: To me it is not about the money, it is the principle.

FWIW, we would be talking about $204 v $216. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to make the banker show something before you just hand it over. This also protects you from changing the story that "now there are 3 unaccounted rebuys" or something.
 

CraigT78

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
9,380
Reaction score
20,406
Location
Dallas
@CraigT78 has previously mentioned logs on PokerMavens that can provide needed details to the host -- maybe he can chime in here.

The banker is responsible for collecting (and distributing) the correct amounts. On PCF's home games, any payments received via G/S are not refunded (because PP now keeps the G/S fees on refunds, thus shorting the receiver), but rather the sender is requested to additionally send the fee amount via F/F. The bank typically doesn't send out winnings until all payments are received, and winning payments are *never* shorted.

Players are responsible for ensuring their fiscal liability is received -- in full -- by the banker, and are liable for any fees incurred by doing so.
If it was poker mavens hit me up, I can parse the logs and let you know.

Don't send back a dime. Time for the host to learn from his mistake.
 

k9dr

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
9,470
Reaction score
23,755
Location
Florida Gulf Coast
If it was poker mavens hit me up, I can parse the logs and let you know.

Don't send back a dime. Time for the host to learn from his mistake.

It was on Poker Mavens, but obviously not on your site. Can you access info on other games ?
 

JustinInMN

Full House
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
4,078
Location
Burnsville, MN
im assuming this isn't a good friend, because if it was they wouldn't be asking for a refund.

I decline on sending the 40 back, then avoid playing with this group again

If it was a legit mistake, I could see asking a friend, but I would have the courtesy to prove the situation. Live room several years ago, dealer lent me 40 from the tray while chips were in transit, I win a huge pot first hand, forgot all about it. Dealer is 40 short when cashing out and floorperson (regular I trust) comes to me to explain what happened and I give the money without an issue. He even offered surveillance, but I know he's right.

However, my suspicion is the banker got stiffed and is going to the winners to cover it, which is scummy AF.
 

Irish

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
3,975
Reaction score
9,478
Location
NJ
x2 on the tourney log to get the all Mavens tourney info (# of buy-ins / rebuys - I would request he publish the log) but it also sounds like utter chaos on the PP/venmo side of things. I can relate as for some folks (especially the "old timers") this is their first experience with online payments, but that's the responsibility of the host to keep straight. My first tourney I had a few guys forget to use "friends & family" and it took out the fee. When I returned their balance after the tourney, I took that fee into account (ie they got less back with a reminder to send F&F in the future). You just need good book keeping, @CraigT78 posted an excellent example in the online poker thread.
 

RainmanTrail

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
7,939
Reaction score
16,346
Location
CA
I'd just send him back the $12 and be done with it. Not worth the headache for $12.
 

RainmanTrail

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
7,939
Reaction score
16,346
Location
CA
Then you set the precedent that, oh I was actually 3 buy ins short, send me $24 more. Make the banker do the work, only way he'll learn.

Then they could get me for $24 next time too. I wouldn't care. But if so, I'd also tell them I'm done playing with the group after that because they can't seem to keep the money straight.
 

JMC9389

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
5,297
Reaction score
8,300
Location
NJ
Even with the Mavens software logging buy ins, if I were the banker I'd keep a ledger with all buy ins and payouts on a pencil and paper, old school. You have PayPal receipts backing you up to confirm any discrepancies.

If this game was among friends I wouldn't be a stickler, but if its against a bunch of acquaintances or unknowns, F that noise. Keep every penny and counter that you're short $4 as well.
 

CraigT78

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
9,380
Reaction score
20,406
Location
Dallas
It was on Poker Mavens, but obviously not on your site. Can you access info on other games ?

No I can not. But I'd ask for the tournament log file. It tracks the number of rebuys and addon.

The daily event log would show who rebought.
@CraigT78 , is it possible @k9dr has the files on his device as a participant that he could send you?
Nope. Browser based, no logs written to the client machine.
 

sheikh617

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
Messages
4,196
Reaction score
8,596
Location
Boston, MA
Moral of the story.. f*uck paypal. Sorry this happened to you. The organizer needs to do better, flat out. I also don't really enjoy rebuy style events online because it is hard to keep track of while also playing in. I use venmo for all my online games.
 

CraigT78

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
9,380
Reaction score
20,406
Location
Dallas
PayPal fees are a problem. The notification on my phone will say - Joe sent you $100.

So I add $100 to Joe.

Next day I do my audit to ensure the bank is right and I see that Joe did send $100 - but sent it goods and services so PayPal kept $3.10.

Now I short Joe's balance by $3.10 and send a courtesy email. Thankfully I've not yet had to ask for $3.10 as the three times it's happened the player still had a balance.

But yes, it sucks to manage all this, but if there is a bank error - that's on me.
 
Top Bottom