Tourney Tips for hosting a charity tourney (1 Viewer)

[Richard Cranium]

12 years ago my wife had I lost our first son when he was born still a week before his due date. The pain might have dulled a bit over the years, but it never will go away. it changed our lives in many ways. The good news is we now have two other young boys. My wife from that experience actually changed careers and became a nurse, and for a while was working in high risk pregnancy care.

I've done some small fundraisers over the years. For example, 10 years after our loss I ran the Army 10 Miler in DC in Cole's memory and raised a small amount for First Candle, an org that helps raise funds for research and helping families deal with their loss after stillbirth and SIDS.

For several years now I've been toying with the idea of a charity poker tournament. October 15th is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day, This falls on a Saturday this year, and it also happens to be my birthday.

So I was thinking, I should finally run that charity tourney. I'm looking for some help from others who have run these before. I have run plenty of tourneys before, I used to be in a league and I was one of the guys who was running the clock and usually handling buyins and stuff. But I haven't done anything like this and I'm looking for ideas.

Here's what I got so far of top of my head- I'm thinking a small event, I have and can fit two tables in my basement. A round that can fit 8, maybe 9 if I squeeze, and an oval that can fit 9. So I'm thinking max 17 players. I'm going to open this to a more public forum than I normally would for a card game at my place, send out my normal invite but also post something to friends on facebook to see if I can get some people who maybe don't normally play cards but might be interested in playing for charity. I thought it might be good to get some fresh people in and they can play while also doing something good. 17 isn't a lot but it is manageable for me to run and if I raise a couple hundred bucks I'll be happy.

Buy in - $30, with a $5 bounty. $20 to prize pool, $10 to charity. $30 rebuys for first 4 levels. Or should I do $40, with a 50/50 split? 20 minute levels. 5000 starting stack. Lower than usual for my group, but thinking it will encourage rebuys, which adds to the charity take.

25/50
25/75
50/100
75/150
break - end rebuys
100/200
200/400
300/600
break
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
hopefully end by this point.

I've been at charity games before where they raked 10% of the side cash game buyins for the chairty, so if you bought $100 you got $90 in chips. Not sure I want to do that.

Maybe have a door prize raffle? Not sure what to give out.

I usually put out some food. I was thinking of smoking pulled pork for sandwiches and maybe some other stuff.

Any thoughts, tips, things that you've seen work at small charity games, things that didn't... any help appreciated.

 

[DJ Mack]

First, sorry to hear of your experience. My wife and I have lost two, not as far along as yours but it's still very real and life altering to say the least. When we were pregnant with what became our second live child when asked if it was our second my wife would always respond fourth pregnancy. Threw some people for a loop, but opened the door for some very interesting conversations with people we never would have suspected ever experienced tragedy like ours. Stay strong and I'm glad you both have been able to channel his spirit into such positives.

Hopefully @T_Chan will chime in. He runs charity events in BC (using nothing but top notch tables of course) as one of his services. I'm sure he's seen lots of different formats and marketing strategies.

I'm on my phone right now but wanted to reply quickly. I'll consider your specific thoughts some and reply tomorrow.

 

[BGinGA]

Buy in - $30, with a $5 bounty. $20 to prize pool, $10 to charity. $30 rebuys for first 4 levels. Or should I do $40, with a 50/50 split? 20 minute levels. 5000 starting stack. Lower than usual for my group, but thinking it will encourage rebuys, which adds to the charity take.

25/50
25/75
50/100
75/150
break - end rebuys
100/200
200/400
300/600
break
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
hopefully end by this point.

I'd drop the bounty aspect (no charity rake), and charge $40 entry ($20 to charity) with $30 per T5000 re-buy ($15 to charity) and a T5000 add-on for $20 ($10 to charity). I'd also re-work the blind structure to encourage loose play and promote more re-buys. Maybe something like the structure below, which still offers plenty of meaningful play for the semi-serious players, but with lots of opportunity for good-natured shove-fest re-buying for charity for the casual and generous folks:

T5000 stacks (100 BB)
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75/150
L4 100/200
L5 150/300
break - remove T25 chips (end re-buy period, issue add-ons)
L6 200 400
L7 300 600
L8 400 800
L9 600 1200
L10 800 1600
break - remove T100 chips
L11 1000 2000
L12 1500 3000
optional - remove T500 chips
L13 2000 4000
L14 3000 6000
L15 4000 8000
L16 6000 12000 ***
L17 8000 16000
break - remove T500/T1000 chips
L18 10000 20000
L19 15000 30000
L20 20000 40000
L21 30000 60000

Tourney should end no later than L16 (estimating 16 players, averaging one re-buy and one add-on per player). If you are wanting to keep it around four hours or so, use 15-minute levels. Running it with 20-minute levels will last around 5.5 hours plus breaks.

Your original structure (stopping at 1000/2000) needs at least five or six more levels. No way it will finish that soon, even with just 10 players and no re-buys.

 

[MacGrad]

I'm not sure how the tax laws work in your jurisdiction, but you could expand the prize pool by making the donation receipt part of the prize...

Using 10 players at $30 ($20 / $10) entry as an example:

1st place could get $50 cash + $50 donated to the charity in their name (with tax receipt)
2nd place could get $50 + $30 donated in their name
3rd place could get $50 + $20 donated in their name
4th place could get $30 cash
5th could get $20 cash

Of course, you'd adjust the prize pool according to the number of people and buy-ins / rebuys / etc...

A flatter payout structure, as well as the tax receipt from the charitable donation, might be a way to keep people excited about playing and they might be more willing to come to future charity tournaments if they understand you're not claiming the deduction for yourself.

 

[DrStrange]

I suggest both legal and tax accounting help before proceeding with a charity gaming night. This type of event has more consequences than might be obvious at a first glance, especially if the amounts of money become larger. In Texas it is black and white unlawful though the District Attorney tends to turn a blind eye in many situations. The income tax consequences deserve some consideration too - for example, I would tread very carefully if you plan on issuing a receipt for donations without issuing a 1099 type report for the income earned.

Good intentions do not a constitute a defense -=- DrStrange

 

[slisk250]

Listen to Dave's suggestion regarding bounties, rebuys, and add ons.

We had a tourney last year with some high rollers using that basic formula. 24 players had a total of 42 rebuys and about half of the field took an add on. The other thing you could do is host a decent spread of food and get some non players in the door buy asking for a donation. Have a big bucket with all of the cash that goes to charity very visible on or near the final table so that when it ends and the winners are paid, you get the chance for them to make an additional donation from their winnings. I did not ask or expect it, but the winner gave back half his amount.

We did have some bounties, but those were side bets. Last year's winner offered a 500 SR bounty on himself with half of the winnings going to the charity. It was pretty smart actually. People were coming after him with marginal hands and he took out many of those fish...then proceeded to get heads up in the final before busting as the bride's maid

 

[moose]

What bginga said, except making change during a rebuy is a pain, I would stick with $40 across the board for rebuys and addon or make the rebuys and addons 20. Any multiple of $20 is good.

Another good starting stack/rebuy format which encourages rebuys is 2k starting with unlimited rebuys of 1k at 1k or less, therefore anyone who busts completely can double rebuy to get back to 2k starting. In this format, I would make the buyin $40 and rebuys $20, so that all chips cost the same. Then make it a 5k addon for $40, which makes it 'a good deal' to take the addon. Also anyone who busts on the final hand before rebuys end, can double rebuy and take the addon and get back to 7k in chips and have a decent stack to play on.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Hey guys thanks for the suggestions, I hadn't even thought of tax implications.

I'll drop the bounties.

If I follow BG's suggestion I don't think I have the right chip breakdown unless I use my faux clay, which i'd prefer not to do. Might have to pick up some more chips! I really wasn't expecting that many rebuys. It would be awesome if it happened, but if I get that many I really won't have enough chips to run the tourney.

 

[BGinGA]

Just need to pick up some T5000 chips for the unexpected re-buys/add-ons...... and they don't even necessarily need to match the rest of the set. What chips did you plan to use? I'm sure somebody here can loan you what you need.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I was going to use CPS chips. I need to check again on my total chip count breakdown when I get back home from taking my son to hockey.

Maybe I can buy some more if Palm still has some in stock, because hey, more chips!

 

[BGinGA]

I have plenty of CPS T5000 chips I can loan you if needed. T1000s too, if you want those. Figure out what you need and let me know via PM.

 

[DJ Mack]

One nice thing about tourneys is you can forget the rake. You just take half or 40% or whatever each time someone hands over cash. Trying to rake the pot with volunteer dealers just slows things down and frankly becomes a logistical bog.

The advice about engaging a tax professional and an accountant (they often aren't the same person) is solid. The rules are very particular and vary by state to state. For example, in Ohio, a 501 (c)(3) charitable organization may conduct some games of chance no more than five days a year on its own premises. To prevent fly-by-night charities from running gambling halls there's a rule that the organization must own the premises for at least a year or lease them from specific other organizations, again provided that they have been owned for at least a year. Furthermore the lessor cannot rent their premises out more than 12 times a year to other charities for gambling.

Then of course there's the requirement that absolutely everyone involved be a volunteer. Long story short, unless you're an established 501 (c)(3) with suitable premises it's very difficult to properly run a charitable poker tournament in Ohio.

But once you get past that the fun begins. I played in a tournament once where there were no set add-ons. Instead, every player was given a raffle ticket when they bought in. Every 10 minutes a ticket number would be called. That person then had the option to buy an add on for $20. If he declined or had quit the game the add-on went up for auction. I remember some guy towards the end paying almost $75 and he still didn't win the tourney. Tickets could be pulled multiple times. That little twist must have brought in close to $700 and man did it get the gang revved up when a number was called. That encouraged more crazy bidding as the night went on.

I agree with doing away with bounties and whatnot unless it's a side bet.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Well I am not a 501c3, and would be running in my personal house. I wasn't going to involve the charity directly I was going to ship them the donation after. If someone who won wanted the donation I could do in their name but as brought up that might run foul of the law.

And this is Maryland where they are just now legalizing home games with some restrictions. Gov signed the bill recently but technically I don't think the enactment date has passed yet, i would have to check. Charity tournaments I am sure are not going to be legal.

I wasn't really worried about that stuff with the size of game I was thinking about. I honestly was hoping to raise a couple hundred bucks for charity not anything large in the grand scheme.

 

[Richard Cranium]

So my CPS breakdown is:

400 x t25
500 x t100
200 x t500
100 x t1000
60 x t5000

Starting stack could be:
20 x t25
20 x t100
5 x t500

Rebuys I could hand
4 x t1000
10 x t100

If I run out of blacks just hand 5 yellows.

 

[T_Chan]

I've run a lot of fundraisers of all different types, the most typical format though is similar to what BGinGA described. Almost all of the fundraisers I've run though are in banquet halls or large venues with high attendance so YMMV.

I think it's a good idea to drop the bounties, there's no real benefit to the fundraiser with them. They're fun but unless they can somehow bring in more money of which part goes to the charity, they should go. What you can do instead of a bounty on everyone, is to put a bounty on some notable players such as yourself. You can offer people to buy bounties on other players. ie. I can pay an extra $5 or $10 to put a bounty of a friend who is playing. This can produce additional rebuys from those players getting knocked out, or others unsuccessfully trying to collect the bounty. The one benefit to bounties is that some people are happy to donate their bounty to the charity, especially towards the end of the night. Those who cash often donate all their bounties back.

After sending out an open invite to anyone who you think may want to come play, pursue them to make a commitment. You want to lock up the seat to make sure all 17 are filled with butts. Attendance is the hardest thing. Collect money in advance if you can.

It's very typical of charity fundraisers to rake 50%. Nobody really bats an eye knowing the money isn't going into the host's pocket but rather to a good cause. 50% of buy ins, rebuys and add ons should be raked. You can sell food and alcohol as well which can sometimes be as much money raised as the poker, or more, and that should all be raked 100%, none of that goes back to the players. Pizza by the slice is what I see most commonly as it's easy to just charge $2-3 a slice. Sometimes I see food included with a players buy in, which is nice but I see it as a lost opportunity to earn some more money for the charity, which is what the whole night is about.

Most of the time, the rebuys are half the cost of the initial entry for a full starting stack. We normally do $40-60 for $5k chips, then half price for another full $5k to rebuy. Add ons are also half of the buy in for another $5 or even $10k. You want to give players every incentive to spend more money to donate to the cause.

I hate this part for a regular poker tournament, which is we normally offer unlimited rebuys for 2 hours. As a poker player I hate to see unlimited rebuys ever, but the goal of the fundraiser is to raise funds, so you want to give players every opportunity to dip into their pockets.

Structure: BGinGA nailed it (i'm socked!) I usually run 15 minute blinds, inserting a break after $400/800 which is also the cutoff for rebuys and the time to offer up add ons. You can add a mini-break after the 150/300 level to chip up, or leave them on the table until the 2 hour break and then cup them up. The only difference my structure has is that we jump from 3000/6000 to 5000/10,000 and then the blinds pretty much double after that, mainly because we usually have a time limit on the venue and have to be out before midnight or 1am so the game has to get moving. Unfortunately with fundraisers, there is a tendency to have less experienced players so the game can really drag when everyone is checking 95% of the time. If you don't have a particular time you need the game to finish, then I would stick with BG's structure. It makes for better poker.

For rebuy chips, I hand out starting stacks until after the 100/200 round. then I start handing out 1000's and 100's only, and after the 200/400 level it's just thousands and I ask the table to make change for the rebought players. I do 12 x $25, 12 x $100, 5 x $500 and 1 x $1k. Bigger stacks for players is good though if you have enough chips for it, with bigger stacks people tend to play looser.

You don't have to encourage a side cash game, but if people ask for it there's no reason not to. If you see enough players hanging around after being knocked out and the 2nd table is available, you can just mention it as an option and gauge interest. 10% rake of their buy ins like you mentioned is what I see most commonly.

That's pretty much it, lots of details and suggestions but to sum it up, play a regular tournament, rake 50% and offer lots of chances to spend more money.

GL with your event, these things usually do very well when the host is passionate about the cause so I have no doubt yours will be a big success.

 

[bonesnjnts]

12 years ago my wife had I lost our first son when he was born still a week before his due date. The pain might have dulled a bit over the years, but it never will go away. it changed our lives in many ways. The good news is we now have two other young boys. My wife from that experience actually changed careers and became a nurse, and for a while was working in high risk pregnancy care.

I've done some small fundraisers over the years. For example, 10 years after our loss I ran the Army 10 Miler in DC in Cole's memory and raised a small amount for First Candle, an org that helps raise funds for research and helping families deal with their loss after stillbirth and SIDS.

For several years now I've been toying with the idea of a charity poker tournament. October 15th is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Remembrance Day, This falls on a Saturday this year, and it also happens to be my birthday.

So I was thinking, I should finally run that charity tourney. I'm looking for some help from others who have run these before. I have run plenty of tourneys before, I used to be in a league and I was one of the guys who was running the clock and usually handling buyins and stuff. But I haven't done anything like this and I'm looking for ideas.

Here's what I got so far of top of my head- I'm thinking a small event, I have and can fit two tables in my basement. A round that can fit 8, maybe 9 if I squeeze, and an oval that can fit 9. So I'm thinking max 17 players. I'm going to open this to a more public forum than I normally would for a card game at my place, send out my normal invite but also post something to friends on facebook to see if I can get some people who maybe don't normally play cards but might be interested in playing for charity. I thought it might be good to get some fresh people in and they can play while also doing something good. 17 isn't a lot but it is manageable for me to run and if I raise a couple hundred bucks I'll be happy.

Buy in - $30, with a $5 bounty. $20 to prize pool, $10 to charity. $30 rebuys for first 4 levels. Or should I do $40, with a 50/50 split? 20 minute levels. 5000 starting stack. Lower than usual for my group, but thinking it will encourage rebuys, which adds to the charity take.

25/50
25/75
50/100
75/150
break - end rebuys
100/200
200/400
300/600
break
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
hopefully end by this point.

I've been at charity games before where they raked 10% of the side cash game buyins for the chairty, so if you bought $100 you got $90 in chips. Not sure I want to do that.

Maybe have a door prize raffle? Not sure what to give out.

I usually put out some food. I was thinking of smoking pulled pork for sandwiches and maybe some other stuff.

Any thoughts, tips, things that you've seen work at small charity games, things that didn't... any help appreciated.

going to be in DC that weekend..just saying

 

[T_Chan]

Oh, and although it would be best to keep the chips all 1 set, if you run out I don't think anyone would make a fuss about introducing a T25k chip from another set. Even if the chip has the wrong denom on it, you could just introduce it as the 25k chip for the night. If not, I'd be happy to lend you some of my CPS chips, I could mail them to you and you could mail them back after your event.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Thanks that's really nice of you chan and bg

Let me see if I can get some interest in the game and I will let you know.

Bones I'm about an hour drive north out of town. Where you staying?

 

[legend672]

Just a suggestion , but I would have a dedicated tournament director who isn't playing

 

[bonesnjnts]

Thanks that's really nice of you chan and bg

Let me see if I can get some interest in the game and I will let you know.

Bones I'm about an hour drive north out of town. Where you staying?

the meeting is at the marriot marquis but i like to look for hotel bargains---where do i go to play if i dont make it to your tourny?

 

[DJ Mack]

Just a suggestion , but I would have a dedicated tournament director who isn't playing

Another good point. Logistical reasons aside, you're going to donate to your own cause anyway so better to give up your seat to a paying player.

 

[Richard Cranium]

After looking into the legal issue a bit, and chatting with a local playing friend of mine, I'm going to put this on hold for a while.

I appreciate all the responses and especially the offers to loan chips.

 

[brains613]

I'd drop the bounty aspect (no charity rake), and charge $40 entry ($20 to charity) with $30 per T5000 re-buy ($15 to charity) and a T5000 add-on for $20 ($10 to charity). I'd also re-work the blind structure to encourage loose play and promote more re-buys. Maybe something like the structure below, which still offers plenty of meaningful play for the semi-serious players, but with lots of opportunity for good-natured shove-fest re-buying for charity for the casual and generous folks:

T5000 stacks (100 BB)
L1 25 50
L2 50 100
L3 75/150
L4 100/200
L5 150/300
break - remove T25 chips (end re-buy period, issue add-ons)
L6 200 400
L7 300 600
L8 400 800
L9 600 1200
L10 800 1600
break - remove T100 chips
L11 1000 2000
L12 1500 3000
optional - remove T500 chips
L13 2000 4000
L14 3000 6000
L15 4000 8000
L16 6000 12000 ***
L17 8000 16000
break - remove T500/T1000 chips
L18 10000 20000
L19 15000 30000
L20 20000 40000
L21 30000 60000

Tourney should end no later than L16 (estimating 16 players, averaging one re-buy and one add-on per player). If you are wanting to keep it around four hours or so, use 15-minute levels. Running it with 20-minute levels will last around 5.5 hours plus breaks.

Your original structure (stopping at 1000/2000) needs at least five or six more levels. No way it will finish that soon, even with just 10 players and no re-buys.

Thread bump to ask Dave if he thinks this would work for a 75-100 player T5000 game? Buy-ins and rebuys, add-ons all $50. I expect lots of rebuys and addons. Probably half the player pool will be novices and less-than-casual players.

 

[BGinGA]

Thread bump to ask Dave if he thinks this would work for a 75-100 player T5000 game? Buy-ins and rebuys, add-ons all $50. I expect lots of rebuys and addons. Probably half the player pool will be novices and less-than-casual players.

That is nearly identical to what I sent you late last night.