Tourney Thoughts on this tournament structure (River's Casino) (1 Viewer)

[bentax1978]

There is a tournament scheduled at my local casino in ten days that has an interesting structure, but one that I'm not sure how I feel about. This is the second time they've held this format, but I missed the first so I didn't get a chance to see first hand how it played out.

The short version is that there are (8) "Day 1" flights leading up to a single "Day 2" event. Each of the Day 1 sessions are 6 hours (12 x 30 minute levels) and at the end of level 12 you simply move on to Day 2 with whatever stack you have. You can enter multiple Day 1 events if you like, but only your largest stack moves on to Day 2. The other option is to simple buy directly into Day 2. The buy-in is about 4x the cost of a Day 1 entry ($260 vs $1100) and you get 4x the chips. However based on the structure, entering on Day 2 starts you off with only 33BB, so you'd be relatively short stacks to start and within an hour or so you could easily be short stacked and looking for spots to push your stack.

So my question is whether it's worth it to buy in to Day 2 or not if you unsuccessful in a Day 1 event? Also, how would Day 1 strategies potentially be altered based on this structure as compared to a more conventional tournament?

https://riverscasinoandresort.com/w...tal-Region-Classic-Structure-Sheet-8-17-1.pdf

 

[namsupak]

This is so strange, I haven't seen that before, to me it seems like buy in Day 2 is what I would do, but I am not a good tournament player. I guess its kinda like the WSOP though, buy in for 10 grand or win a satellite for a seat.

 

[derekdd23]

After watching the latest Doug Polk podcasts, Polk, Kasella and Helmuth almost always max late reg all tourneys.

Personally I would try to take a shot( or 2) at a day 1 then reg day 2 if i didn't make it. 33 Bigs is plenty to maneuver around with.

 

[derekdd23]

In general for these tourneys you will see a decent amount of people straight blasting to build a stack, but a majority will be trying to play their "A" game. My approach for rebuys like this has always been to play solid and get it in anytime i felt i was ahead since I could always get back in. Identifying said blasters is also critical since they won't fold any draws to any bet and will put on max pressure at all times until the rebuy is over. Last tourney I played at Turning Stone one local had over 15 rebuys into a $400 tourney, he cashed for a pretty decent loss.

 

[upNdown]

I feel like I'd rather take a stab or two (or even 3) at day one, than buy in for Day 2. You have 12 levels to quadruple your stack (to get to the day 2 buy-in amount) I'd feel like my odds of doing that are pretty good with 2 or 3 chances. Hell it would even be worth it if you did it on your 4th try, compared to buying in on day 2.
Very interesting.

 

[JoseRijo]

After watching the latest Doug Polk podcasts, Polk, Kasella and Helmuth almost always max late reg all tourneys.

Those pros are trying to maximize their hourly ROI. They *want* to bust in the shortest time possible.

Presumably, someone on this board playing that tournament would have the exact opposite goal.

 

[BGinGA]

I'd give day 1 a try or two, unless my first try ended with a decent-size stack. Never buying into a tourney with 33bb, no matter how they market it.

 

[derekdd23]

If the 33bb is around an average sized stack, i dont see that as too big of a deal. If you removed the actual numbers and said you could buy in with whatever the average is, I bet it would change how you feel.

ROI or not, those guys are very successful buying in shorter. Some guys like Mercier will just jam and double up or leave, but Phil Hellmuth will grind the shit out of a 8bb stack as long as he can, let alone 33. With today's min-raise environment 33bb feels like a lot more.

In most large casino MTTs I have played, sitting with over 30bb is plenty and probably where most of your tournament time is spent anyways. If you made it to day 2 with 33bb you would probably be pretty happy with that result...

 

[bentax1978]

If you made it to day 2 with 33bb you would probably be pretty happy with that result...

True, but you'd only be in for $260 (not $1100) in that scenario.

 

[derekdd23]

True, but you'd only be in for $260 (not $1100) in that scenario.

You are paying the variance free tax. But yeah, that does suck. It really depends on how much of your bankroll you are willing to put up and how much time you have. You could probably sit at a 2-5 game and win the difference in half the time of a day 1.

 

[bentax1978]

You are paying the variance free tax. But yeah, that does suck. It really depends on how much of your bankroll you are willing to put up and how much time you have. You could probably sit at a 2-5 game and win the difference in half the time of a day 1.

I have a larger bankroll than free time at the moment.


I actually thought about whether I'd be better off playing 2/5 for 6 hours instead of a Day 1 entry, but then it would feel like the opposite of the satellite tournament to get into the $25/50 NLHE cash game we talked about this morning.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm not paying $20 to play in a 33bb starting stack tournament, much less $1100. And having the possibility of other larger stacks in play from the start just makes it an even worse investment.

30 big blinds isn't enough to weather through any kind of speculative play, much less withstand a bad beat or cold deck hand. It's a crappy format, no matter how they market it.

 

[derekdd23]

I have a larger bankroll than free time at the moment.


I actually thought about whether I'd be better off playing 2/5 for 6 hours instead of a Day 1 entry, but then it would feel like the opposite of the satellite tournament to get into the $25/50 NLHE cash game we talked about this morning.

Or it could be a cash game that gets you into a tournament that gets you into a bigger cash game double satellite.

 

[bentax1978]

I'm not paying $20 to play in a 33bb starting stack tournament, much less $1100. And having the possibility of other larger stacks in play from the start just makes it an even worse investment.

30 big blinds isn't enough to weather through any kind of speculative play, much less withstand a bad beat or cold deck hand. It's a crappy format, no matter how they market it.

I don't disagree, and was skeptical of the format, which is why I posted the details to solicit opinions.

 

[WedgeRock]

Never buying into a tourney with 33bb, no matter how they market it.

"Buy in to Day 2 of this tournament with a 33BB stack for $1"

Still a no?

 

[BGinGA]

Correct. Shovefest from the get-go, with no appreciable prize money incentive.

 

[derekdd23]

How many big blinds is the threshold for a shove fest?

 

[Mojo1312]

Important to note: Blind levels are 30 minutes for Day 1 and 40 minutes for Day 2.

 

[BGinGA]

How many big blinds is the threshold for a shove fest?

When a typical 3-bet/call pot size is more than 40% of your remaining stack. That's about 30bb on average.

 

[bentax1978]

Tournament room is set up. Not sure I'll be able to play today, but definitely planning to give at least one of the Day 1 flights a shot.

 

[Wils]

Good luck

 

[Trihonda]

Not a fan of this format. Not a fan of starting with 33bb, if I just entered day 2. Not a fan of entering a day 1 (of 8 possible day ones). I'd rather have 6 days of sattys, followed by two flights of day 1, and a final day two.

 

[bentax1978]

Not a fan of this format. Not a fan of starting with 33bb, if I just entered day 2. Not a fan of entering a day 1 (of 8 possible day ones). I'd rather have 6 days of sattys, followed by two flights of day 1, and a final day two.

All valid points/preferences, but the format is what it is, so it's a matter of determining the best strategy given the imperfect format.

(I suppose not playing is a valid strategy, but it doesn't sound like a very fun one )

 

[Trihonda]

All valid points/preferences, but the format is what it is, so it's a matter of determining the best strategy given the imperfect format.

(I suppose not playing is a valid strategy, but it doesn't sound like a very fun one )

True. Apologies. If I were playing this I think I'd stab at the day 1's. If my bullet didn't connect; I'd hit the cash tables.

If your day 1 goes Well, you could have an advantage on day two. Wouldn't stab more than one bullet. Just me tho.

 

[bentax1978]

And this is exactly the scenario I was unsure about. An hour left in Day 1b, I have 60k in chips. I feel like the property strategy is to take some risks and double up. If I don't and I end up with 45-50k to end the session, I'll be short stacked to start Day 2, and less inclined to play another Day 1 event.

On the plus side I got to watch Hellmuth play Cates heads up live during the breaks.

 

[Trihonda]

And this is exactly the scenario I was unsure about. An hour left in Day 1b, I have 60k in chips. I feel like the property strategy is to take some risks and double up. If I don't and I end up with 45-50k to end the session, I'll be shirt stacked to start Day 2, but less inclined to play another Day 1 event.

On the plus side I got to watch Hellmuth play Cates heads up live during the breaks.

View attachment 117153View attachment 117152

Gambol it up! Nothing to lose!

 

[Trihonda]

Gambol it up! Nothing to lose!

And run good! Take down day two!

 

[BGinGA]

I think your target stack for starting Day 2 should be a minimum of 100K, and worth taking risks to get there. Chances are most of the current big-stack players won't be wanting to risk losing their hard-earned gains. Shorter stacks are probably the most dangerous to you right now.

You want to have a significant $$ advantage on all of the players that buy-in for that 100K amount on Day 2.... as most of them will be playing softer with more money at risk (even with the same 33bb stack that you will have). You can exploit that on Day 2, but not without the chips to do so.

 

[bentax1978]

I think your target stack for starting Day 2 should be a minimum of 100K, and worth taking risks to get there. Chances are most of the current big-stack players won't be wanting to risk losing their hard-earned gains. Shorter stacks are probably the most dangerous to you right now.

You want to have a significant $$ advantage on all of the players that buy-in for that 100K amount on Day 2.... as most of them will be playing softer with more money at risk (even with the same 33bb stack that you will have). You can exploit that on Day 2, but not without the chips to do so.

Didn't quite hit my target. Ended the day with 80k. We had 101 entries, and ended with to 21 after 12 levels (average stack 120k). So I'm in a mediocre position. I can do nothing and just enter Day 2 with 27BB and be in for $260. Or I could roll the dice and play another Day 1. But it seems pretty -EV to play another one given the format and my stack.

 

[derekdd23]

Didn't quite hit my target. Ended the day with 80k. We had 101 entries, and ended with to 21 after 12 levels (average stack 120k). So I'm in a mediocre position. I can do nothing and just enter Day 2 with 27BB and be in for $260. Or I could roll the dice and play another Day 1. But it seems pretty -EV to play another one given the format and my stack.

Where are the Chip pictures!!!!!!!!!