Tesla Model 3 (1 Viewer)

[Ben]

Do you have a pic of the aero wheels with the plastic removed ?

Here's one from the web.

 

[Ben]

Not sure how I'm supposed to know who is 6'9". Is it in the forum FAQ?

The car has a surprisingly large amount of headroom, as stated before, I'm very comfortable in the car. For someone who is 6'9" I would imagine it would be pretty difficult to feel comfortable, not because you wouldn't fit (I don't think your head would hit the ceiling of the car) but because your line of sight would be staring into the sun shade in a normal position rather than through the windshield. But I would expect the Model 3 is about as good as any car for headroom at this size (midsize sedan). Getting in and out is fine for me but it's obviously not as comfortable as a larger car like an SUV or a large size sedan.

I'm 6'9" - and only 34" inseam so it's ALL up top. My head hits the roof in literally any vehicle with seat at "standard" height and sitting up straight. It's just a matter of how much contortion is required to make it work. Adjustable-height seats (which the Model 3 has) are the biggest factor, followed by windshield height/angle (looks good-ish but can't exactly tell,) followed by headroom measurement (great for a sedan, solid for any vehicle.) I also generally hate driving large vehicles/SUVs so that further limits my options.

If I could afford it I would buy a Model X and never look back though - that thing fits amazing, and that windshield!

I can sit in a Model S without extreme gyrations thanks to the great adjustability of the seats, but driving it is another matter - front visibility is very challenging. It's also pretty difficult to contort myself in/out of... I expected the Model 3 to be no better and likely worse, so did not place an early reservation. I put one down as soon as I saw a video of a 6'7" guy in a Model 3, but that still isn't as tall as me.

Thanks for the pics sir!

 

[timsta007]

Happy to give you the pictures. My dad has a Model S and I've driven it many times. In terms of getting in and out, they are pretty comparable. In terms of headroom I'd say the Model 3 might even be slightly better than the Model S because of the glass ceiling. Seat adjustment is definitely the same in both cars. Visibility is actually a good bit better in the Model 3. I'm not a fan of the Model S in terms of the window shapes and locations for visibility. I think the Model 3 is probably as good as its going to get for you in a sedan, other than a full sized luxury sedan like a 7 series BMW or something.

 

[softchewy]

I'm 6'9" - and only 34" inseam so it's ALL up top. My head hits the roof in literally any vehicle with seat at "standard" height and sitting up straight. It's just a matter of how much contortion is required to make it work. Adjustable-height seats (which the Model 3 has) are the biggest factor, followed by windshield height/angle (looks good-ish but can't exactly tell,) followed by headroom measurement (great for a sedan, solid for any vehicle.) I also generally hate driving large vehicles/SUVs so that further limits my options.

If I could afford it I would buy a Model X and never look back though - that thing fits amazing, and that windshield!

I can sit in a Model S without extreme gyrations thanks to the great adjustability of the seats, but driving it is another matter - front visibility is very challenging. It's also pretty difficult to contort myself in/out of... I expected the Model 3 to be no better and likely worse, so did not place an early reservation. I put one down as soon as I saw a video of a 6'7" guy in a Model 3, but that still isn't as tall as me.

Thanks for the pics sir!

Possible Solution?...

 

[Ben]

I think the Model 3 is probably as good as its going to get for you in a sedan, other than a full sized luxury sedan like a 7 series BMW or something.

I suspect that's likely the case, which is why I'm excited about the car, even without having been in one. The headroom measurement is 1.5 inches higher than the S which doesn't sound like much but is actually huge. The only thing I'm really worried about is the visibility below the visors, and the back seat - my kids will need to be still be able to ride in it when they are full-grown or close to it. I don't expect they will be as tall as me, but maybe around your size - have you ridden in the back seat at all? Is the lower seat position really bothersome?

I test-drove a Chevy Bolt and it was actually superlative in all the usual metrics, although it had some significant unexpected drawbacks as well - it's still in contention if the 3 won't work for some reason, along with a couple of high-efficiency gas cars.

 

[crussader]

.... no carbon emissions....

There are plenty of emissions. You just don't see them because they are released at the plant that creates the electricity to run the thing.

 

[Poker Zombie]

There are plenty of emissions. You just don't see them because they are released at the plant that creates the electricity to run the thing.

Curse those damn solar emissions!

 

[crussader]

Curse those damn solar emissions!

Currently, solar energy provides five-tenths of 1 percent of the electricity used in this country.

Update: Sorry, that's the percentage of energy used.

15% of electricity is generated by "renewable resources".

 

[timsta007]

Currently, solar energy provides five-tenths of 1 percent of the electricity used in this country.

Update: Sorry, that's the percentage of energy used.

15% of electricity is generated by "renewable resources".

Factually correct, but depending on where you live and what time of day you charge the car, those percentages can go way up. Fossil fuel generated electricity (coal, natural gas, etc.) generally operates in cycles going full blast during the day time during peak hours, and then scaled back at night time. In some parts of the country (west coast) the renewable sources of energy (wind, hydroelectric, etc) can sometimes over produce compared to the energy load being required. There are times where they actually have to lock windmills so that too much energy isn't produced when no one is using it. Over production can be as bad as under production in the energy generation and transmission game. So if you restrict all charging to the hours of 12-6am you will frequently be using a much higher & of renewable energy. In CA, probably well over 50%.

Edit: this is also the reason why most electricity providers are changing to a time based rate system. Basically electricity used in off-peak hours costs way less than that used during peak daytime hours. I can charge my EV for less than $0.03/kwh in the middle of the night compared to the usual $0.115/kwh for daytime.

With all of that said, I agree it is stupid to claim that Teslas are zero emission vehicles. Obviously some of the energy you use for fuel will generate carbon footprint but its a hell of a lot less than the typical internal combustion engine car, even a really efficient one like a Prius.

 

[Ben]

15% of electricity is generated by "renewable resources".

And climbing, by the day.

The rest is generated by less-clean sources, all of which are still cleaner and more efficient than burning gas in an internal combustion engine.

Here's a map showing the complete life-cycle vehicle emissions of an efficient electric vehicle (Model 3, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Ioniq, etc.) used in different regions of the U.S. for construction of the vehicle and electric charging, expressed as an equivalent to gas-vehicle MPG, as of very recently. Of note also is that almost all of these numbers are at least 50% better than they were 4 years ago, some 2x better.

 

[Mental Nomad]

15% of electricity is generated by "renewable resources".

And climbing, by the day.

And since you'll probably own the car for more than a couple of years, an electric vehicle actually gets cleaner every year while you own and drive it.

 

[allforcharity]

There are plenty of emissions. You just don't see them because they are released at the plant that creates the electricity to run the thing.

Most electricity in my area of the world comes from hydro power. It will be nice when more of it comes from wind and/or solar.

 

[moose]

Huh? Hydropower is the cleanest, most reliable source of energy there is.

 

[bivey]

Huh? Hydropower is the cleanest, most reliable source of energy there is.

While true, dams are environmental disasters.

 

[moose]

Because they reduce flooding

While true, dams are environmental disasters.

Because they reduce flooding?

 

[bivey]

Because they reduce flooding


Because they reduce flooding?

...because they destroy fish runs, namely salmon and steelhead. Fish ladders are not present on all damns. Entire runs of fish have disappeared upstream of the Grand Coulee damn built in the 1930's. That's hundreds upon thousands of miles of Columbia, Snake, Salmon rivers and their tributaries that have had their ecosystems completely altered. Attempts below the dams to install hatcheries have been unsuccessful in terms of fish returning to spawn. Additional pressure by Native American fishing has cut fish runs down to less than 5% of their numbers from less than 100 years ago.

Not on a soapbox, the above are facts. Renewable, clean energy shouldn't cause this kind of devastation in my opinion. Anyway, back to cars.

 

[Ben]

So, today I managed to score a Model 3 test drive, from a very kind local owner who took pity on me.

The car is STUPENDOUS. Headroom and legroom, both front and rear, were the best I've ever seen in a sedan that wasn't a full-size Mercedes or BMW. The acceleration and handling were amazing. The suspension, as reported, was much more "Porsche-like" than "Lexus-like," but I don't consider that a bad thing - overall, I found it even MORE fun to drive than a Model X P100D, with the exception of launch mode of course. Build quality, as far as I could tell, was flawless. The low back seat with raised leg-angle did start to get slightly uncomfortable after being in it for about 20 minutes, but I'm also a much larger-than-average person - and there aren't many back seats I can really sit in at all. The lower height afforded me enough headroom to be able to ride there without issue.

A couple of things that struck me that don't really come across in pictures, I think:

1. The interior quality is outstanding. I always thought it looked a little chintzy in pictures with the faux-leather, piano-black console and woodgrain "dash," but in person it doesn't look/feel that way at all. Everything looked and felt very high-quality, and the way it all integrates with the headliner and awesome glass roof gives it a really unique and premium look IMO. The seats felt awesome and very durable.

2. The screen is both larger and easier to reach than it comes across in pictures. I'm half-blind and I had NO problem reading anything on the screen at a glance while driving in heavy-ish traffic in downtown Nashville, and the icons are large and difficult to miss, even with my fumble-fingers. The speedometer is pretty much directly in your line of sight (which a traditional speedometer isn't, for me - I have to duck my head to see through the steering wheel on most cars.)

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who has never felt the urge to spend more than $25k on a vehicle previously, but I've certainly ridden in plenty of luxury cars and wouldn't take any of them over the Model 3. That combined with the prospect of leaving the gas station, the oil change, and the obnoxious sound of a revving engine behind (sorry about that one, car guys ) and I'm definitely going to be buying one, when I get the opportunity.

 

[timsta007]

Glad you got an opportunity to drive one. I tend to agree for the most part with most of your comments. I don't agree that the interior compares with some of the more expensive luxury cars but it definitely compares with cars in its class like a 3 series BMW. Handling and power are fantastic and the touch screen didn't take long to get used to as a dash board. Did you get a chance to try the auto pilot?

 

[Ben]

Glad you got an opportunity to drive one. I tend to agree for the most part with most of your comments. I don't agree that the interior compares with some of the more expensive luxury cars but it definitely compares with cars in its class like a 3 series BMW. Handling and power are fantastic and the touch screen didn't take long to get used to as a dash board. Did you get a chance to try the auto pilot?

Not on the 3 but I have on the X. Honestly I most likely won't buy autopilot as 95%+ of our driving takes place on rural roads or in-town - very little stop and go traffic, and very little interstate driving (except for PCF meetups. ) Some of the recent upgrades have me thinking again though - MAYBE it could work well on some of our local roads. I wish I could get a one-week trial or something before plopping down $5k for it...

People always say that the Model 3 is in the same class with the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C-class, etc. but I disagree - because the Model 3 appeals to people like me who have never, ever, even for a second considered buying one of those cars. I think that at least until there are many more options across several manufacturers, Teslas (and EVs in general) are a class by themselves.

 

[timsta007]

The good thing about the auto pilot is that all the cars are built with the hardware. If you wanted to get it later and could justify the price, you can always purchase it separately and get a software update to add the capabilities.

I agree that it isn't really comparable to ICE cars but based on price and size, the 3 series is a pretty solid comparison point. The model 3 blows the BMW out of the water IMO.

 

[davin]

a saw a few here in hawaii

 

[Mental Nomad]

People always say that the Model 3 is in the same class with the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C-class, etc. but I disagree - because the Model 3 appeals to people like me who have never, ever, even for a second considered buying one of those cars.

I'm with you, Ben. I never considered a car in the $40k+ range, but I got my invite to configure, and now I'm figuring when I'm going to pull the trigger.

 

[NiceShot]

Finally got a vin! Waiting for them to make it and take my money. I am looking forward to driving it as it evolves in the coming years. Got to sit in a friends model 3. I dig the look and feel. The premium audio was impressive. Clean bass, treble, and mids.

 

[Señor Tony]

Slightly off topic but interesting video for anyone into BEVs, a quick look at the new Jaguar I-Pace.

If I was a Telsa bull (I am not), I would be shaking in my hooves right now. This is the first of many more to come from more traditional automakers and seems like a fantastic start from first impressions.

 

[timsta007]

I'm admittedly a fan of Tesla, but when I watch this video I can't help but be a little skeptical. When the dude says something like "Jags are known for having great acceleration and agility, and many EVs aren't known for having that agility" seconds after many other direct comparisons with Teslas, it makes me think he's never driven a Tesla, or is intentionally trying to downplay how successful a car Tesla has been able to produce. Nervous about other companies developing better cars? Its possible, but a lot of car makers have been working on EVs for many years and no one has come even remotely close to being able to manufacture an EV that is even in the same ballpark as Tesla when it comes to range and performance. I have no doubt that someday another car maker will succeed in the way Tesla has in putting a great EV out to market, but I keep hearing about Tesla killers and I've yet to see anything that competes in the EV market yet. Other cars have had a history of promising low prices and long range, but when they actually get to market they just haven't delivered on those promises. As a Tesla fan, I would welcome competition, it will only make more auto makers take the EV line more seriously.

 

[Señor Tony]

I would absolutely agree with Jonny (the reviewer) on his statement that you quoted. I would ask which cars someone has previously driven to feel like they can describe a Tesla Model S as "agile" (Model S being the only Tesla car I have driven. I can only assume here that the Model X is less agile than the Model S?).

Jonny Smith quote while driving a P100D:

"The thing about high performance electric cars, which Tesla has sort of led the charge on, is that they have suddenly made something so desirable with no legacy. Tesla have just come out of no where and in twelve years or whatever have bought out one model, then two, then three and then just killed off a load of performance and muscles cars with a car that you know, has three seats back there. I don't think people realize what torque is until you get into a car like this. You see the thing about electric cars is, to convince doubters about why this sort of performance is infectious.. what I would love to do is give everyone a ride. Take everyone out for a ride and don't just don't take my word for it, don't take his word for it, just experience it for yourself and tell me what you think. Because even if you still miss the idea of an engine, you know a rumbling V8, you have still got to appreciate it."

Jonny was not saying that Tesla's cannot accelerate like a Jaguar (obviously EV's win hands down), he was saying (rightly so imo) that BEV are not traditionally known for their agility. Can a Tesla go from 0-60 faster than most production cars? Hell yes. Can a Tesla transform from insane accelerating torque machine and plod along the highway like a comfortable ass luxury car without missing a step? Hell yes. Can a Tesla pretty much drive itself on a good quality highway? Hell yes. Can a Tesla eat corners for breakfast and whip around a winding canyon road?

The Youtube channel from which the video was taken is called Fully Charged. They focus on all things renewable: primarily electric, solar and battery tech. Now, a traditional motoring journalist, I may question their objectivity regarding an electric vehicle review. However, the reviewer for Fully Charged, Jonny Smith, has in fact driven many Tesla variants including the P100D. He is the owner and current holder of the record for world's fastest street legal electric vehicle called the "Flux Capacitor". He is a self confessed electric car fanatic and indeed a fan of Tesla. Questioning his objectively regarding the I-Pace given Jaguar has a rich history in the United Kingdom? Possibly valid. Questioning his objectivity because he doesn't associate BEV's with agility? A stretch.

The amount of R&D dollars that traditional car makers are putting into electric technology is mind blowing. They know this is the future. I believe (and am grateful) that Tesla has jump started the transition from ICE to BEV and accelerated the technology and transition by many, MANY years. I just don't think they have done it in a way that is sustainable from a business perspective. Traditional automakers have the advantage of continuing to be profitable from ICE sales while transitioning sales to BEV's as technology and prices allow.

 

[timsta007]

To me the video felt like an unapologetic advertisement, all the way down to the end where he was explaining the jag badges (growler and leaper). That's totally fine. It was interesting and I enjoyed some of the more technical discussions of the design and tech behind the car. But the video also felt like he wanted to compare this car favorably against a Tesla without actually comparing it. Is the Model S objectively agile when compared to the production sports cars that it can beat off the line? No of course not. But compare it to other cars in its size and weight class and it's a completely different story. By their nature, EVs are not going to be as agile as their ICE counterparts because they have a massive battery built into the bottom of the frame. I have a hard time believing that the I-Pace is leaps and bounds more agile than the Model S/X but I obviously can't know without driving it.

The way I see this video is a guy that is genuinely and perfectly understandably excited about well established auto makers producing what appear to be high quality EVs that could compete with the currently Tesla cornered market. I have no problem with that at all and I love that Tesla is driving a major change in the way we will think about cars. I want those other vehicle makers to succeed. But to take that and make a leap to say that Tesla should be worried because all of a sudden other car makers are going to be able to do it better and cheaper than they are doing now seems like a stretch to me. I would love to be wrong.

 

[Señor Tony]

Tesla has set the benchmark (extremely high) in three vehicle classes. To not reference these benchmarks in a first look at a competitor would be difficult. It seems like you haven't consumed much media relating to product launches. Events where media personalities gain access to much anticipated products for the first time, often with extreme time limits. A press event like this is intended to be a giant advertisement for the product, that's the point.

Your sensitivity to the objectivity of the presenter towards Tesla is besides the point. The point being that competition is here. Will the I-Pace steal enough market share from the Model X to affect Tesla, I have no idea. The point is that a major manufacture is about to release a vehicle designed from the ground up as an EV with comparable range to the Tesla at a competitive price point.

We shall have to wait for comprehensive reviews, real world testing and comparisons. I look forward to comprehensive comparisons of the I-Pace with the Model X - even though the I-Pace will compete in a different class size and price point to the X.

For comparison sake, take SpaceX. If I could invest in this company I absolutely would. This a business with a moat, a very deep and very wide moat. A moat that one maybe two companies/countries are currently dipping their toes in. Most likely no one will challenge, release a similar product or be anywhere near competitive in the foreseeable future.

Tesla on the other hand have a ditch around them. A ditch that they need to keep burning cash that they don't have in order to maintain its current depth of exactly not very deep. A ditch that many large companies are currently spending billions to breach. Companies with decades of supply chain, mass manufacturing, chassis and suspension design, quality control, fit and finish expertise etc. These companies know how to make cars and to claim that Tesla is not or should not be worried about the looming competition is brave, very brave.

And lets not kid ourselves here, relative to a SpaceX rocket, an electric vehicle is a pretty simple piece of technology. Chassis, battery, motor, sensors, big screen, wheels, cooling, charging, brakes, battery management, regenerative braking etc. I cannot see what makes a Tesla so defensible to the multitude of other companies who will be banging on their door?

At the end of the day all three Teslas are fantastic cars but just look at car history in every segment, the leading car in each class changes almost every year or generation. One generation the Corolla is class leading, the next generation Mazda 3 has the edge, the generation after that its the Honda Civic and so on for each class of vehicle. What makes you think it will be any different in 5 to 10 to 20 years when Honda, Mazda, Ford, Chevy, Mitsubishi, BMW, VW, Porsche, Kia, Hyundai etc and Tesla all have EV's competing in each segment? Will Telsa lead the way each year with the class leading car in each segment?

Heavy battery packs do present a challenge for the dynamics of a car but as I am sure you know this also has benefits. Lower center of mass, ability to distribute heavy cells to balance weight distribution etc. Chassis design, suspension, aerodynamics etc all play into how a car feels and handles.. for me, this is where the I-Pace is exciting.

 

[timsta007]

I guess the main disagreement we have is what does "Tesla enthusiasts should be worried" or "tesla killer" mean. To me, when people say that, it means that other companies will produce a product so much superior in cost/value than a Tesla that they will lost such a substantial portion of the market share that the company will risk insolvency. Your post above would indicate that you see those phrases as companies that would enter the EV market and would be competitive with Tesla and/or other companies battling each other for current class leading vehicle. I completely agree that such a scenario is likely to occur in the next 10 years and I don't see that as being a major problem for the Tesla brand, especially until there is a serious competitor to the Model 3.

 

[Poker Zombie]

It reminds me of the iPad killer and the iPhone killer.

Apple led the technology and built a fanatic fan base. Tesla has done the same thing. Sure, in time others will come along and eat away at the market share, but no one product will carry the forward-thinking innovation that Tesla (or Apple) did when they broke the new ground.

Tesla's biggest enemy will be their growing pains. If other cars come to market with actual usable cars while Tesla is still delivering nothing but promises and expectations, they could lose their ground-breaking edge.