T20,000 STT Deep Stack Game Seven Handed: Pocket 10's in the Small Blind (2 Viewers)

[JMC9389]

Here's the situation and cast of characters:

This is a seven handed T20,000 starting stack deep stack game, no rebuys, blinds are 300/600 after two hours of play. League points are doubled and are a consideration as it is a deep stack game. Hero is in 1st place and has a 15 point lead on the next person, but that lead can evaporate if hero doesn't cash and 2nd or 3rd place win. Cast of characters and the stack sizes to the best of my memory are below:

UTG: Tight aggressive, competent player that hasn't been very active tonight. Sitting at just about 19,000 in chips just below starting stack

UTG +1: Can get loose and passive preflop and can get a little frisky with some bluffs mixed in post flop, however, will usually lead out post flop only if he has a hand. Just doubled up via hero three hands prior and is sitting at about 22,000.

HJ: Tight aggressive player that can get bluffy and buy pots where there's dead money and he senses weakness. Current chip leader at about 38,000 in chips.

CO: Loose passive preflop player that likes to see lots of flops. Has sticky tendencies. Hasn't been very active but has won a couple of small pots is up slightly at about 25,000 in chips.

Button: Loose passive player that doesn't lead out or raise post flop or on subsequent streets unless he's got a hand. Can make some very good, albeit tight folds on very connected and wet boards when he has second or third best hand on the board. Down a bit at about 18,000 in chips.

SB (hero): You all know me by now. Tight, aggressive, with easily the lowest VPIP of anyone else in this cast of characters. Had been running well the first hour and a half but tilting his balls off now after losing with AJ to UTG with 3/4 suited three hands prior. Was second biggest stack prior to that hand but now at 16,000ish.

BB: Loose and aggressive when short stacked but otherwise tight and aggressive but with sticky tendencies when he's stuck or down in a tournament. Has about only 3,000 left in chips and is in fold or shove mode.

The preflop action played out as follows:

UTG and UTG +1 fold. HJ min raises to 1200. CO folds. Button cold calls. Hero looks down at in the small blind


Hero?

 

[utgtrash]

i think it is normally a jam - a bit big but 3 handed here. because you say HJ is tight meaning he opens tight even as chipleader, and you seem to be better than the field so going broke here is a big mistake, you should probably just call and hope you get a good flop/play post as you see fit.

 

[Moxie Mike]

The BB is probably going to stick it in if he has anything reasonable. Since that will be a legal raise, that will reopen the betting.

I would advocate a call to see what everyone else does after the BB jams. If the BB does indeed shove, you will get a lot of information about the HJ and Button's hands. If the HJ 4-bets, I'd probably fold. However if they just call (assuming the button comes along too), I'd 4-bet big to hopefully get heads up against the all-in player with a decent amount of dead chips in play.

Based on descriptions, I'm more concerned about the Button's post-flop skills than the HJ.

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

Raise. Only question is how much. I’d go at least 3K to make BB all in if he wants to play loose.

 

[Legend5555]

I think you just have to jam. Calling is waaaaaay to weak with TT. And a normal 3 bet would be to like 4.5-6k. but anything in that range commits you to calling a 4 bet jam. And you REALLY don't want to 3 bet to 4.8k and just get called and have only an SPR of 1 going to the flop OOP.

Just take out the difficulty and jam to win the 2.7k out there.

 

[upNdown]

I think you just have to jam. Calling is waaaaaay to weak with TT. And a normal 3 bet would be to like 4.5-6k. but anything in that range commits you to calling a 4 bet jam. And you REALLY don't want to 3 bet to 4.8k and just get called and have only an SPR of 1 going to the flop OOP.

Just take out the difficulty and jam to win the 2.7k out there.

I think this is the answer.
It's a pretty clear jam, really, in my eyes. HJ min raised - he's not calling off almost half his stack here. Same for button. BB might come along, but who cares.

 

[Senzrock]

Jamming would be fine but i know it feels like we are a bit too deep to jam here imo - 30bbs plays a lot deeeper in these formats. It’s a weird spot for sure. While you can’t go wrong with jamming, I generally prefer call here (oop, we are in a weird spot if we make a big raise and get called by the AK/AQ/KQ/AJs of the world, and yeah jamming is just pretty big). I think the most +EV play is a jam in the end but in practice, in a home/league type of game, I often end up flatting here and try to win a bigger pot.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think this is the answer.
It's a pretty clear jam, really, in my eyes. HJ min raised - he's not calling off almost half his stack here. Same for button. BB might come along, but who cares.

Jamming would be fine but i know it feels like we are a bit too deep to jam here imo - 30bbs plays a lot deeeper in these formats. It’s a weird spot for sure. While you can’t go wrong with jamming, I generally prefer call here (oop, we are in a weird spot if we make a big raise and get called by the AK/AQ/KQ/AJs of the world, and yeah jamming is just pretty big). I think the most +EV play is a jam in the end but in practice, in a home/league type of game, I often end up flatting here and try to win a bigger pot.

I think you just have to jam. Calling is waaaaaay to weak with TT. And a normal 3 bet would be to like 4.5-6k. but anything in that range commits you to calling a 4 bet jam. And you REALLY don't want to 3 bet to 4.8k and just get called and have only an SPR of 1 going to the flop OOP.

Just take out the difficulty and jam to win the 2.7k out there.

But isn't is reasonable to assume that the BB will bet HERO's hand for him:

BB: Loose and aggressive when short stacked...

BB wants to 4x his stack and will likely recognize that this is his opportunity to do so and will jam with a WIDE range. If you're advocating a jam that's fine... but let's get some more dead money in the pot first.

 

[upNdown]

BB wants to 4x his stack and will likely recognize that this is his opportunity to do so and will jam with a WIDE range. If you're advocating a jam that's fine... but let's get some more dead money in the pot first.

I often end up flatting here and try to win a bigger pot.

you should probably just call and hope you get a good flop/play post as you see fit.

I wonder what planet you guys play poker on, that you think it's nice to go four ways to a flop with tens. I mean if you're set-mining, fine. But I'm not set mining here. Don't get greedy. Take what's in the middle and look for your next spot.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I wonder what planet you guys play poker on, that you think it's nice to go four ways to a flop with tens. I mean if you're set-mining, fine. But I'm not set mining here. Don't get greedy. Take what's in the middle and look for your next spot.

Hey Rob, I think you're missing the point.

This isn't a question of 'if' to drop the hammer or not... but 'when'.

Jamming now is a bad proposition for HERO from a risk/reward proposition. If HERO jams when the action reaches him, he has to get through 3 opponents whose hand strength is unknown. But if HERO calls and the BB jams, he gets to make a decision based on much more information. If hero calls and:

Scenario 1: BB jams and both opponents flat call. HERO can jam confident he has the best hand while having a big enough stack to induce 2 folds.
Scenario 2: BB jams and the HJ or Button jams over the top. HERO can fold confidently having dodged a massive bullet.
Scenario 3: BB folds or calls and HERO has to play poker.

So by calling the worst case scenario is HERO has to take a flop OOP with an underrepped hand.

 

[upNdown]

Hey Rob, I think you're missing the point.

This isn't a question of 'if' to drop the hammer or not... but 'when'.

Jamming now is a bad proposition for HERO from a risk/reward proposition. If HERO jams when the action reaches him, he has to get through 3 opponents whose hand strength is unknown. But if HERO calls and the BB jams, he gets to make a decision based on much more information. If hero calls and:

Scenario 1: BB jams and both opponents flat call. HERO can jam confident he has the best hand while having a big enough stack to induce 2 folds.
Scenario 2: BB jams and the HJ or Button jams over the top. HERO can fold confidently having dodged a massive bullet.
Scenario 3: BB folds or calls and HERO has to play poker.

So by calling the worst case scenario is HERO has to take a flop OOP with an underrepped hand.

Okay, I kind of did miss the point.
Fair point.
But I still don't like it, because I think scenario 3 is the most likely. I wonder if BB has 3K behind, or if he began the hand with 3K.

 

[utgtrash]

I wonder what planet you guys play poker on, that you think it's nice to go four ways to a flop with tens. I mean if you're set-mining, fine. But I'm not set mining here. Don't get greedy. Take what's in the middle and look for your next spot.

I had said it’s probably correct to jam - but I also said if the OP knows to play safer and not risk going broke that’s up to him.

 

[Legend5555]

Hey Rob, I think you're missing the point.

This isn't a question of 'if' to drop the hammer or not... but 'when'.

Jamming now is a bad proposition for HERO from a risk/reward proposition. If HERO jams when the action reaches him, he has to get through 3 opponents whose hand strength is unknown. But if HERO calls and the BB jams, he gets to make a decision based on much more information. If hero calls and:

Scenario 1: BB jams and both opponents flat call. HERO can jam confident he has the best hand while having a big enough stack to induce 2 folds.
Scenario 2: BB jams and the HJ or Button jams over the top. HERO can fold confidently having dodged a massive bullet.
Scenario 3: BB folds or calls and HERO has to play poker.

So by calling the worst case scenario is HERO has to take a flop OOP with an underrepped hand.

I don't like it.

While dodging scenario 2 would be nice, is just not something we should be overly concerned with. The only reason we are even moderately considering it is because the BB is so short. We could get rejammed on by way more hands than ones that just beat us. I would rejam AJs+, 88+, KQs if I was HJ. That's a flip against TT and there is already dead money out there to compensate. Plus we might get HJ to fold some of those hands if we jam now. Also, in what world are the HJ and B folding to the 3k jam after putting in 1.2k?

Scenario 3 is terrible. I don't want to go multiway with TT OOP. We just can't realize our equity easily. And that sucks.

Scenario 1 also sucks. Think about it. We call, BB jams for 3k, both players call. Now we jam for 13k more on top, so 13k into a 12k pot? How often are BOTH other players going to actually fold getting 2 to 1 pre? This play is just optimistic and greedy. I'm not saying it would never work. But it relies on way to many variables that have to go correctly for us. I don't like relying on others to do what I need then to do.

 

[Pinball]

Never call in this spot!

I would reraise to 3600. If BB jams fine TT is good enoug vs his range. If HJ jams we need to fold we need to fold but it leaves us still over 20BB (What is not bad in SNG's like this)

 

[JMC9389]

Lots of great and polarizing thoughts here that I appreciate so far. Just goes to show that this isn't exactly a straight forward spot. In the moment, I thought back to this hand last year that I actually posted here as well:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pocket-10s-utg-am-i-a-nitty-nit.75277/

Not quite exactly the same scenario but very similar with pocket 10's out of position. Either way, trying to learn a lesson from that hand, I have no interest in playing this multiways, so here's what happened.

As stated in the OP, blinds are 300/600, and hero looks down at in the small blind facing a min raise of 1200 from the HJ and a cold call from the button. Considering that BB is still behind with the short stack, hero decides to three bet to 3000 to induce an all in call from BB and play them heads up and to try and get the min raiser and/or the cold caller out of the hand.

Facing an all in, BB folds, HJ folds, and button cold calls the 3000. Pot is 7200 total.

Flop comes .

Hero?

 

[Senzrock]

Never call in this spot!

I would reraise to 3600. If BB jams fine TT is good enoug vs his range. If HJ jams we need to fold we need to fold but it leaves us still over 20BB (What is not bad in SNG's like this)

A small 3b like this is the worst of all options imo - you’re not going to get any folds and you will have to play the hand oop vs multiple opponents holding a hand that doesn’t flop great.

 

[Senzrock]

Lots of great and polarizing thoughts here that I appreciate so far. Just goes to show that this isn't exactly a straight forward spot. In the moment, I thought back to this hand last year that I actually posted here as well:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pocket-10s-utg-am-i-a-nitty-nit.75277/

Not quite exactly the same scenario but very similar with pocket 10's out of position. Either way, trying to learn a lesson from that hand, I have no interest in playing this multiways, so here's what happened.

As stated in the OP, blinds are 300/600, and hero looks down at in the small blind facing a min raise of 1200 from the HJ and a cold call from the button. Considering that BB is still behind with the short stack, hero decides to three bet to 3000 to induce an all in call from BB and play them heads up and to try and get the min raiser and/or the cold caller out of the hand.

Facing an all in, BB folds, HJ folds, and button cold calls the 3000. Pot is 7200 total.

Flop comes .

Hero?

Pretty shocked you got HJ to fold for just 1800 more?? Must be a pretty bad opponent. He’s getting great odds in position. I might describe him a bit different in my next opponent bio because that’s a big leak.

As played, I think we are very happy in this spot and go for ~60% pot, hoping to get it in vs 88/77/66 hands who convince themselves we have AK.

 

[JMC9389]

Some feedback on what's been posted here so far in no particular order:

Shoving here is overkill here with mostly everyone still deep stacked except for the big blind to hero's left. Hero is still just under 30 BB's deep and can control the size of the pot and still has fold equity on flops that don't favor hero. Hero also sees no reason to bloat the pot out of position, but wants to try and get it heads up to an all in from the BB or with the min raiser or cold caller. Even three ways is not ideal out of position.

A cold call can make sense, but if BB checks his option (he has only 3000 TOTAL including his big blind), we're going four ways to a flop which is also a total disaster. If BB shoves his remaining stack and HJ and/or the button call or four bet, that's also bad and hero is very hard pressed to continue out of position. If hero five bet rejams, he's only getting called by better but has the chance to pick up a lot of dead money if they're best over big blind.

A modest three bet makes the most sense here all things considering, I think.

 

[Senzrock]

Some feedback on what's been posted here so far in no particular order:

Shoving here is overkill here with mostly everyone still deep stacked except for the big blind to hero's left. Hero is still just under 30 BB's deep and can control the size of the pot and still has fold equity on flops that don't favor hero. Hero also sees no reason to bloat the pot out of position, but wants to try and get it heads up to an all in from the BB or with the min raiser or cold caller. Even three ways is not ideal out of position.

A cold call can make sense, but if BB checks his option (he has only 3000 TOTAL including his big blind), we're going four ways to a flop which is also a total disaster. If BB shoves his remaining stack and HJ and/or the button call or four bet, that's also bad and hero is very hard pressed to continue out of position. If hero five bet rejams, he's only getting called by better but has the chance to pick up a lot of dead money if they're best over big blind.

A modest three bet makes the most sense here all things considering, I think.

I think having the bb shove and just having one of our opponents call would be the best scenario actually because then we could re-shove over a range that we should be ahead of with TT (and we still have a lot of fold equity with).

 

[Legend5555]

A modest three bet makes the most sense here all things considering, I think.

If by modest you mean 4.5k+, then what is the plan when jammed on OR called and over cards come when we now have less than a post sized bet left?

 

[upNdown]

Lots of great and polarizing thoughts here that I appreciate so far. Just goes to show that this isn't exactly a straight forward spot. In the moment, I thought back to this hand last year that I actually posted here as well:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pocket-10s-utg-am-i-a-nitty-nit.75277/

Not quite exactly the same scenario but very similar with pocket 10's out of position. Either way, trying to learn a lesson from that hand, I have no interest in playing this multiways, so here's what happened.

As stated in the OP, blinds are 300/600, and hero looks down at in the small blind facing a min raise of 1200 from the HJ and a cold call from the button. Considering that BB is still behind with the short stack, hero decides to three bet to 3000 to induce an all in call from BB and play them heads up and to try and get the min raiser and/or the cold caller out of the hand.

Facing an all in, BB folds, HJ folds, and button cold calls the 3000. Pot is 7200 total.

Flop comes .

Hero?

I don’t do a good job of maximizing my profits in tournament hands. I’m very happy to collect those chips now, instead of letting him realize his equity by hitting one of his overs. I know, I know, we want to string him along because the odds are in our favor. In a cash game, of course. In a tournament where we can’t reload, I’m not gonna be a greedy little piggy.
Bet the pot.

 

[Legend5555]

I think having the bb shove and just having one of our opponents call would be the best scenario actually because then we could re-shove over a range that we should be ahead of with TT (and we still have a lot of fold equity with).

While true, this is counting on a lot of things going just right for us. If we call and BB jams, are we really happy having wasted 2bb with TT if HJ re-jams? Especially since he could re-jam with hands we beat. Just seems like the stars would really need to align for this to work out well. And as I stated before, if BB jams and the other calls then we jam, we are giving the opponents 2 to 1. Going to be hard for them to fold unless they really think we were just sandbagging KK or AA.

 

[upNdown]

Shoving here is overkill here

Certainly. But there’s 3300 in the middle; that’s 20% of our stack. You guys can play poker if you want. But for a 20% increase, I’m grabbing the almost sure thing.

 

[JMC9389]

If by modest you mean 4.5k+, then what is the plan when jammed on OR called and over cards come when we now have less than a post sized bet left?

Fold to a four bet jam and Check/fold to a bet on a flop if just called. Either way I'm figuring I'm getting called only by other smaller pocket pairs or hands with two face cards in them. Sometimes A 10 suites, maybe K 10 suited depending on the player as well.

Hero has 12000 left going into a flop with 7200 in the pot. Plenty of wiggle room to play a hand of poker.

 

[detroitdad]

I'm shoving due to your attack size

 

[Legend5555]

Fold to a four bet jam and Check/fold to a bet on a flop if just called. Either way I'm figuring I'm getting called only by other smaller pocket pairs or hands with two face cards in them. Sometimes A 10 suites, maybe K 10 suited depending on the player as well.

Hero has 12000 left going into a flop with 7200 in the pot. Plenty of wiggle room to play a hand of poker.

12k left? So we 3! to 4k (too small IMO)? Let's assume just HJ calls. Pot is now 9.8k (4k from HJ, 1.2k from Button, 4k from Hero, 600 from BB) and we have just 12k left. I don't like this sound of that in the slightest. What's the post flop plan with this SPR, out of position, on the multitude of bad flops? The good flops are easy to play.

What about the times when HJ AND Button call? You want to fold to a 4 bet jam when we are going to be getting almost 2 to 1 with TT? Then why raise TT at all?

Folding is obviously too weak.

Calling looks cool in theory, except we are OOP with only 26-27bb and will almost assuredly go multiway OOP on EVERYONE. How do we realize our equity exactly?

Any realistic raise will put in almost 1/3rd of our stack. At that point, we should just jam to maximize fold equity. A good rule of thumb that @upNdown brought up is that anytime you are thinking of raising when the existing pot is already 20%+ of your stack, you should really just be jamming. The pot is already too bloated and the SPR will be too small post. Add to that that we are OOP and there really isn't any great reasons to do anything other than jam. If there is another more profitable route here, I can't see it being an easy to play one. And that's a big problem.

I know it looks like a big jam. But this is very standard. I would jam AJs+, 99+, and probably KQs here from the SB. 88 is on the cusp for me. But I can imagine it might still be profitable jam given the dead money if we assume we always get called by by either the HJ or Button (not both) and they always have a better hand. I'd have to crunch the numbers though. And that's just hard math and doesn't take into account that they will fold away correct equity a decent amount of the time.

 

[Legend5555]

As played, flop is super dry. I'm betting 3k and calling a jam. If called, I'm jamming pretty much all non-broadway turns. But really, the villain shouldn't have many calls here unless it's a pair under 9s, 9x, or 99. So if he calls flop, we shouldn't be overly afraid of over cards turns. He shouldn't have AK because that would likely jam pre. If he has JJ and didn't jam pre, more power to him, he gets my money. But I can't imagine we need to be afraid of bigger overpairs here.

 

[Mandos]

Hero is in 1st place and has a 15 point lead on the next person, but that lead can evaporate if hero doesn't cash and 2nd or 3rd place win.

Maybe I missed it, but do we know which players we're trying to finish ahead of for league points here?

 

[Senzrock]

Maybe I missed it, but do we know which players we're trying to finish ahead of for league points here?

Seems like we need a bit more information on the points system. Is it through the end of 2022? Is the end of the year nearing? Is the double points thing something that happens a few times during the year? Once? As of now, hard to understand how the points are a major factor in how we play the hand.

 

[Senzrock]

As played, flop is super dry. I'm betting 3k and calling a jam. If called, I'm jamming pretty much all non-broadway turns. But really, the villain shouldn't have many calls here unless it's a pair under 9s, 9x, or 99. So if he calls flop, we shouldn't be overly afraid of over cards turns. He shouldn't have AK because that would likely jam pre. If he has JJ and didn't jam pre, more power to him, he gets my money. But I can't imagine we need to be afraid of bigger overpairs here.

I like a slightly larger bet here - hoping to induce villain who won't believe we hit this flop + making stacks shallower so that we can't make many mistakes moving forward.