Cash Game Stupid Seven Card Stud Questions (really stupid!)

gf10

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:confused::confused::confused:

I know on 3rd-street that the low card must bring-in, but can the low card open for a full small bet?

In a $3-$6 game, if Alice brings-in in for $1, Bob completes to $3, Carl raises to $6, and Derick raises to $9, can Erick raise to $12 or does Bob's competition count as a raise (meaning that Erick can only call $9 or fold)?

On 5th-street street Alice has xx-7s-Qs-Kc and Bob has xx-7c-Qc-Kh, is the tie broken by suit or by position in relation to the button? If broken by suit, is it broken by the suite of the highest card?

On 4th-street street Alice has xx-J-J, Bob has xx-A-9, and Carl has xx-5-3. If Alice opens for $3, can Bob raise to $9? If Alice opens for $6 and Bob raises to $12, can Carl raise to $18? Or does a big bet on 4th-street count as two raises?

On 3rd-street Alice opens, Bob calls, Carl raises and all players except Bob fold. Can Bob and Carl re-raise each other to infinity? Or are they still limited to the one-bet-three-raises rule as they did not start the hand heads-up? If the answer is that the rule still applies, does that mean that on 3rd street, that so long as there are more than two players at the table, that there is always a raising-cap on 3rd street?

Sorry for these dumb questions, but I've never seriously played Seven Card Stud and I've found conflicting answers to these questions on the Internet and in poker software.
 

snooptodd

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I've answered these to the best of my ability, but everything depends on house rules.

:confused::confused::confused:

I know on 3rd-street that the low card must bring-in, but can the low card open for a full small bet?

Yes.

In a $3-$6 game, if Alice brings-in in for $1, Bob completes to $3, Carl raises to $6, and Derick raises to $9, can Erick raise to $12 or does Bob's competition count as a raise (meaning that Erick can only call $9 or fold)?

Erick can make it $12. Four full bets is the cap (or five, if house rules allow five bets/four raises).

On 5th-street street Alice has xx-7s-Qs-Kc and Bob has xx-7c-Qc-Kh, is the tie broken by suit or by position in relation to the button? If broken by suit, is it broken by the suite of the highest card?

On third street, bring in is determined by suit. After that, ties for first action are broken by position in relation to the dealer -- there is no button in stud.

On 4th-street street Alice has xx-J-J, Bob has xx-A-9, and Carl has xx-5-3. If Alice opens for $3, can Bob raise to $9? If Alice opens for $6 and Bob raises to $12, can Carl raise to $18? Or does a big bet on 4th-street count as two raises?

Every player will have the option to bet/raise the big bet amount, regardless of what Alice does. So every player can make a $6 bet/raise. Each incremental increase in the bet amount counts as a raise, so again, four (or five) total bets are allowed, regardless of amount. Once the big bet has been brokered, there's no going back (can't be $3, $9, $12).

On 3rd-street Alice opens, Bob calls, Carl raises and all players except Bob fold. Can Bob and Carl re-raise each other to infinity? Or are they still limited to the one-bet-three-raises rule as they did not start the hand heads-up? If the answer is that the rule still applies, does that mean that on 3rd street, that so long as there are more than two players at the table, that there is always a raising-cap on 3rd street?

I've never seen a raising war in this situation, so I don't know what happens, but my guess is any time you are heads up in a pot, regardless of whether you started that way at the beginning of that betting round's action, you can raise until one player is all in.

Sorry for these dumb questions, but I've never seriously played Seven Card Stud and I've found conflicting answers to these questions on the Internet and in poker software.
 

Pinball

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:confused::confused::confused:


On 3rd-street Alice opens, Bob calls, Carl raises and all players except Bob fold. Can Bob and Carl re-raise each other to infinity? Or are they still limited to the one-bet-three-raises rule as they did not start the hand heads-up? If the answer is that the rule still applies, does that mean that on 3rd street, that so long as there are more than two players at the table, that there is always a raising-cap on 3rd street?
QUOTE]

In my Opinion there's a cap but I know that some games allows to raise till all in when hu. I think that this special rule must make to be clear to everyone before playing.
 

jbutler

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On 3rd-street Alice opens, Bob calls, Carl raises and all players except Bob fold. Can Bob and Carl re-raise each other to infinity? Or are they still limited to the one-bet-three-raises rule as they did not start the hand heads-up? If the answer is that the rule still applies, does that mean that on 3rd street, that so long as there are more than two players at the table, that there is always a raising-cap on 3rd street?

I've never seen a raising war in this situation, so I don't know what happens, but my guess is any time you are heads up in a pot, regardless of whether you started that way at the beginning of that betting round's action, you can raise until one player is all in.

at all AC/PA rooms i've played limit in (borgata, taj, harrahs AC, parx), if the betting round began three-handed, the betting is capped regardless of when the third player folds during betting.

that said, as aaron noted, it all depends on house rules. at least one guy claimed that at the commerce, if the third player immediately folds and does not put any money into the pot during the betting round, it is considered heads up and therefore uncapped. i have no idea whether this is true.
 

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Snooptodd was pretty much dead-on with his answers, so I'm just going to expand a tiny bit. I used to be a dealer and floorperson in Atlantic City, so if I say "standard rules," I mean the rules as codified in NJ State Law. Casino practice may have deviated a little since my time there; I worked there in the early 90's.

I know on 3rd-street that the low card must bring-in, but can the low card open for a full small bet?
Yes.
Right. The rule is that the low card must bring it in for at least $1. That means they're also allowed to make a larger bet. In a spread limit $1-$5 game, they could even open with $5.

In a $3-$6 game, if Alice brings-in in for $1, Bob completes to $3, Carl raises to $6, and Derick raises to $9, can Erick raise to $12 or does Bob's competition count as a raise (meaning that Erick can only call $9 or fold)?
Erick can make it $12. Four full bets is the cap (or five, if house rules allow five bets/four raises).
Right. This why Bob's action is called "completing." The rule is that Bob is "completing the bet" that was started by Alice. Bob did not raise.

Caveat: it's more proper to say three raises is the cap. Technically, a bet and three calls is four bets. (Calls are bets).


On 5th-street street Alice has xx-7s-Qs-Kc and Bob has xx-7c-Qc-Kh, is the tie broken by suit or by position in relation to the button? If broken by suit, is it broken by the suite of the highest card?
On third street, bring in is determined by suit. After that, ties for first action are broken by position in relation to the dealer -- there is no button in stud.
Right. After third street, suits never, ever, ever matter.

Caveat: the position rule does not apply unless the tied hands were both dealt on the same card. If one of the hands "catches up" to the other, the lead does not change. The lead only changes when someone shows cards that are higher than the previous leader.

So in your example, the tie is broken by giving the lead to the person closer to the dealer's left - the person who was dealt the first card that made the "K,Q,7" hand.

However, consider this order: Alice has xx-7s-Qs-Kc and Bob has xx-7c-Kh-Qc. Bob had the lead on 4th street with "King, Seven," so Bob maintains the lead on 5th street. Lead does not change until the leader is bested. One proper way for a professional dealer to call it is to point to Bob's hand and say, "King heart, Queen, Seven still high," and this can confuse people - the word "heart" is thrown in there to differentiate Bob's hand from Alice's, and it should not be taken to imply that the heart matters. If the dealer knows people's names, he can also say, "Bob's King, Queen, Seven still high." Alternately, they can pull this one out: "Kigh heart, Queen, Seven retains the lead." One way or another, he is supposed to specify which K, Q, 7 he means, and if he has no other way, he can call out a suit to do so, but that does not mean that the suit matters. Technically, the dealer should NOT point and say, "this K, Q, 7 is still high," because it fails to verbally identify the hand, but I don't think anyone would ever care. In fact, most places, if the dealer just taps in front of the lead and says nothing, people are satisfied.

On 4th-street street Alice has xx-J-J, Bob has xx-A-9, and Carl has xx-5-3. If Alice opens for $3, can Bob raise to $9? If Alice opens for $6 and Bob raises to $12, can Carl raise to $18? Or does a big bet on 4th-street count as two raises?
Every player will have the option to bet/raise the big bet amount, regardless of what Alice does. So every player can make a $6 bet/raise. Each incremental increase in the bet amount counts as a raise, so again, four (or five) total bets are allowed, regardless of amount. Once the big bet has been brokered, there's no going back (can't be $3, $9, $12).
Right. The presence of the open pair allows anyone to shift the game from the small bet to the big bet, not just the person with the open pair. But like Snooptodd says, there's no going back - the general poker rule always applies: "all raises must be equal to or greater than the previous bet or raise on that round." So once someone goes big, the game has shifted. The only exception is when someone is put all-in.


On 3rd-street Alice opens, Bob calls, Carl raises and all players except Bob fold. Can Bob and Carl re-raise each other to infinity? Or are they still limited to the one-bet-three-raises rule as they did not start the hand heads-up? If the answer is that the rule still applies, does that mean that on 3rd street, that so long as there are more than two players at the table, that there is always a raising-cap on 3rd street?
I've never seen a raising war in this situation, so I don't know what happens, but my guess is any time you are heads up in a pot, regardless of whether you started that way at the beginning of that betting round's action, you can raise until one player is all in.

Again, correct. As soon as the action is heads-up, betting is uncapped, even it had already been capped! For example, the following action has proper calls by the dealer:

Alice opens, Bob raises. Carl calls.
Alice raises. Bob raises. Dealer declares "raises are now capped."
Carl folds. Dealer should declare, "heads up, there are no caps."
Alice may now raise if she wants.

Bear in mind that the purpose of capping raises is to limit pot-slamming - that its, to prevent two players from using a raising war to force a third player into endlessly calling. It's too easy for two players to collude to do this - any time one raises, the other will also raise, even with crap, just to force other players to make extra bets. As soon as the pot is heads up, this form of collusion is no longer possible, and the cap should be immediately lifted (unless the house rule is that bets are always capped even when heads-up.)

Incidentally, raising from second best is sometimes sound poker strategy in limit poker, and is not necessarily collusion. Be very careful before raising this accusation.
 

snooptodd

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Right. After third street, suits never, ever, ever matter.

Caveat: the position rule does not apply unless the tied hands were both dealt on the same card. If one of the hands "catches up" to the other, the lead does not change. The lead only changes when someone shows cards that are higher than the previous leader.

So in your example, the tie is broken by giving the lead to the person closer to the dealer's left - the person who was dealt the first card that made the "K,Q,7" hand.

However, consider this order: Alice has xx-7s-Qs-Kc and Bob has xx-7c-Kh-Qc. Bob had the lead on 4th street with "King, Seven," so Bob maintains the lead on 5th street. Lead does not change until the leader is bested. One proper way for a professional dealer to call it is to point to Bob's hand and say, "King heart, Queen, Seven still high," and this can confuse people - the word "heart" is thrown in there to differentiate Bob's hand from Alice's, and it should not be taken to imply that the heart matters. If the dealer knows people's names, he can also say, "Bob's King, Queen, Seven still high." Alternately, they can pull this one out: "Kigh heart, Queen, Seven retains the lead." One way or another, he is supposed to specify which K, Q, 7 he means, and if he has no other way, he can call out a suit to do so, but that does not mean that the suit matters. Technically, the dealer should NOT point and say, "this K, Q, 7 is still high," because it fails to verbally identify the hand, but I don't think anyone would ever care. In fact, most places, if the dealer just taps in front of the lead and says nothing, people are satisfied.

I never knew this, thanks for the clarification.
 

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Happy to help, snoop.

Also, gf10 - I don't think any of these questions were stupid! They are mostly question about fairly subtle aspects that a lot of people would be unsure about.
 

BGinGA

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Good answers to some good questions. Only two things I would add, both referring to stud tournament play:

- typically, the round must start heads-up for the four-bet cap to not apply
- typically a pair on fourth street does not open the possibility of big bets


Additionally, card suits can come into play beyond third street --- during the showdown, when awarding an odd chip:

In a button game (like Hold'em), the odd chip is awarded to the first hand clockwise from the button. But in a stud game, the odd chip is awarded to the player with either the highest card (Stud) or lowest card (Razz) by suit, where all seven cards are used (not just the five used to make the winnning hand).

In high-low split Stud games, the odd chip is awarded as follows:
- The high hand receives the odd chip in a split between the high and the low hands.
- The odd chip between tied high hands is awarded to the high card by suit using all seven cards.
- The odd chip between tied low hands is awarded to the low card by suit using all seven cards.
 

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Again, correct. As soon as the action is heads-up, betting is uncapped, even it had already been capped! For example, the following action has proper calls by the dealer:

Alice opens, Bob raises. Carl calls.
Alice raises. Bob raises. Dealer declares "raises are now capped."
Carl folds. Dealer should declare, "heads up, there are no caps."
Alice may now raise if she wants.

Bear in mind that the purpose of capping raises is to limit pot-slamming - that its, to prevent two players from using a raising war to force a third player into endlessly calling. It's too easy for two players to collude to do this - any time one raises, the other will also raise, even with crap, just to force other players to make extra bets. As soon as the pot is heads up, this form of collusion is no longer possible, and the cap should be immediately lifted (unless the house rule is that bets are always capped even when heads-up.).

thanks for posting this. i'll have to ask the floor (or likely a couple of different floors) at borgata to see if the dealers just habitually screw this up (which, as you likely know from having worked in card rooms, is not unlikely) or if the rule has changed.
 

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Again, correct. As soon as the action is heads-up, betting is uncapped, even it had already been capped! For example, the following action has proper calls by the dealer:

Alice opens, Bob raises. Carl calls.
Alice raises. Bob raises. Dealer declares "raises are now capped."
Carl folds. Dealer should declare, "heads up, there are no caps."
Alice may now raise if she wants.

Bear in mind that the purpose of capping raises is to limit pot-slamming - that its, to prevent two players from using a raising war to force a third player into endlessly calling. It's too easy for two players to collude to do this - any time one raises, the other will also raise, even with crap, just to force other players to make extra bets. As soon as the pot is heads up, this form of collusion is no longer possible, and the cap should be immediately lifted (unless the house rule is that bets are always capped even when heads-up.)

Incidentally, raising from second best is sometimes sound poker strategy in limit poker, and is not necessarily collusion. Be very careful before raising this accusation.

Does this rule also counts for Tournaments? I have never seen a stud game where you can raise and raise when game is HU.
 

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Good answers to some good questions. Only two things I would add, both referring to stud tournament play:

That's an important point - everything I said applies to cash games. Tournaments may have variation. I only worked cash games; this was the early days of poker in Atlantic City.

Additionally, card suits can come into play beyond third street --- during the showdown, when awarding an odd chip:

That's counter to what I was taught: suits will never, ever, ever decide the outcome. Suits do not figure into ranking and therefore do not factor into outcomes. They are only used to decide order (dealing high-card for first deal, or using low card in stud to indicate who brings it in.)

The rules I worked under:

- Odd chip on hi/lo split goes to the high hand
- Odd chip in a split among high hands or among low hands goes to the aggressor (whoever made the last bet/raise)
- If a three-way pot that is being split among the two people who called, the odd chip goes to the first person to call the bet - that is, the person to the aggressor's left
- In a multi-way pot of three or more (happens when several people "play the board' in holdem), the odd chips are "dealt" to the winners, starting with the aggressor, and proceeding to each caller in play order

You'll notice that the last gives you the same result as if you divvied up the whole pot by dealing the chips clockwise to all the winners, starting from the bettor and continuing until you run out of chips (assuming all the chips were singles.) This is how to do it if you can't do the math to divide shares, and your chips are too irregular to stack off. In other words, this is what they used to do in the "old days."

Suit never comes into play.
 
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