"Standard Raise"? (1 Viewer)

[Psypher1000]

I've seen it mentioned a few times now where the "standard raise" is now 2x-2.5x the bet, where as prior to now I've seen it listed as ranging from 3x-5x.

I have a few questions about this.

• I'm assuming this "standard raise" only applies to pre-flop play in tournaments. If I'm incorrect, what other situations would that apply to?
• Where does this standard come from? Anecdotal observations from pro players? New math/game theory? Personal experience?
• If the reduction in standard raise is indeed agreed upon, why? Based on what? Just wanting to risk less because the overall player pool is improving? Other factors?
• What advantages do you personally find in the 2x-2.5x raise range vs. using 3x or 4x as a starting point?

 

[Trihonda]

I've seen it mentioned a few times now where the "standard raise" is now 2x-2.5x the bet, where as prior to now I've seen it listed as ranging from 3x-5x.

I have a few questions about this.

• I'm assuming this "standard raise" only applies to pre-flop play in tournaments. If I'm incorrect, what other situations would that apply to?
• Where does this standard come from? Anecdotal observations from pro players? New math/game theory? Personal experience?
• If the reduction in standard raise is indeed agreed upon, why? Based on what? Just wanting to risk less because the overall player pool is improving? Other factors?
• What advantages do you personally find in the 2x-2.5x raise range vs. using 3x or 4x as a starting point?

This is a good question. I've seen the comments you referenced and thought the same thing.

I think IMHO, the standard raise amount is different in each game, and is set by the tone and play of the people in the game. If you're in a game, and the typical raise is 3x, then if you bet 2x, you can expect everyone to come along? I also think there's two schools of thought on standard raises, raise the same no matter what you have to reduce betting tells. Or bet a variety of different amounts based on many different factors (position, hand strength, hand strength of your villain, and your desired outcome; value, buy the pot, etc...).

 

[manamongkids]

I've seen it mentioned a few times now where the "standard raise" is now 2x-2.5x the bet, where as prior to now I've seen it listed as ranging from 3x-5x.

I have a few questions about this.

• I'm assuming this "standard raise" only applies to pre-flop play in tournaments. If I'm incorrect, what other situations would that apply to?
• Where does this standard come from? Anecdotal observations from pro players? New math/game theory? Personal experience?
• If the reduction in standard raise is indeed agreed upon, why? Based on what? Just wanting to risk less because the overall player pool is improving? Other factors?
• What advantages do you personally find in the 2x-2.5x raise range vs. using 3x or 4x as a starting point?

Also coincides with new thought process that a short stack doesnt become short until they are down to 12-15 BBs. whereas previously a 20-25 BB stack was said to be short.

 

[Mr Tree]

I've seen it mentioned a few times now where the "standard raise" is now 2x-2.5x the bet, where as prior to now I've seen it listed as ranging from 3x-5x.

I have a few questions about this.

• I'm assuming this "standard raise" only applies to pre-flop play in tournaments. If I'm incorrect, what other situations would that apply to?
• Where does this standard come from? Anecdotal observations from pro players? New math/game theory? Personal experience?
• If the reduction in standard raise is indeed agreed upon, why? Based on what? Just wanting to risk less because the overall player pool is improving? Other factors?
• What advantages do you personally find in the 2x-2.5x raise range vs. using 3x or 4x as a starting point?

I consider this a tournament standard. Even then it really applies more as the blinds elevate. Early when everyone is deep I still raise 3-5 times. When the stacks get shallow a 2x blind will still get you the same amount of folds and gives you flexibility to make more moves than simply shoving post flop.

If you raise 2-2.5 in a cash game that is just a pot builder.

 

[CraigT78]

I do not agree to this new standard. I will not comply!

 

[ushallnotraise]

• I'm assuming this "standard raise" only applies to pre-flop play in tournaments. If I'm incorrect, what other situations would that apply to?

Not necessarily. Many times cbets are actually smaller than preflop raise sizes. Let's say blinds are 5k/10k/1k 9 handed You raise in MP to 20k, folds around and BB calls.Pot size is 54k. A standard cbet size could be anywhere from 16-18k in many situations. This is for a couple of reasons:

1. In order to be successful in MTTs you need to be able to successfully outplay your opponents post-flop. This reduces the risk to your stack size while outplaying your opponent on the flop.
2. Deeper in MTTs, while a bet size may be small in relation to the size of the pot, it can still be large in relation to your opponent's stack.

Where does this standard come from? Anecdotal observations from pro players? New math/game theory? Personal experience?

Poker bet sizes, raise sizes, calling/shoving ranges, etc, all come from trends that grow based off of extensive experience, study and discussion within the MTT community. Players began realizing around 6-7 years ago that smaller raise sizes gave good players the ability to reduce variance by risking less of their stack and outplaying an opponent on the flop.

If the reduction in standard raise is indeed agreed upon, why? Based on what? Just wanting to risk less because the overall player pool is improving? Other factors?

I kind of answered this in the last part, but overall it's because after study, discussion and viewing results players have realized this just works better.

What advantages do you personally find in the 2x-2.5x raise range vs. using 3x or 4x as a starting point?

Personally I feel very comfortable outplaying my opponent on the flop, so there is very little reason to risk a larger portion of my stack preflop when I can get a much better understanding of the hand on the flop and/or later streets.

Edit: PS this is in regards to tournament play, not cash games.

 

[Jimulacrum]

As mentioned above, the appropriate raise size varies by table. Really, your preflop raise size should be whatever accomplishes the goals of your raise—typically a decent chance of taking down the blinds or getting the pot heads-up to the flop.

Sometimes a min-raise will accomplish that (more often in the later stages, when stacks are short and people are in preservation mode, and especially with predictable nits in the blinds). Sometimes 2.5x or 3.5x will do it. Sometimes the "magic number" is 5x. There is no one answer because it depends on table texture, stack sizes, your position, your table image, your opponents' tendencies, and other variables.

And sometimes your objective is slightly different, e.g., stealing the blinds may be much more valuable at that moment than seeing a heads-up flop. In that example, a larger raise may be proper to dissuade action. This is more often true when you're short-stacked, in particular if there's an ante. It may also be true in the earlier stages of a deep-stacked tourney, where people's calling ranges will more closely resemble cash play (though in that case, you're raising bigger to isolate fewer callers rather than to steal blinds).

I'm of the school of thought that there is no "standard" preflop raise size. There are parts of NLHE tournaments where a formulaic approach is good—say, endgame spots where pot odds and survival dominate other considerations—but an adaptive/exploitative strategy is usually far superior overall. Each raise and how to size it is a judgment call.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Not necessarily. Many times cbets are actually smaller than preflop raise sizes. Let's say blinds are 5k/10k/1k 9 handed You raise in MP to 20k, folds around and BB calls.Pot size is 54k. A standard cbet size could be anywhere from 16-18k in many situations. This is for a couple of reasons:

1. In order to be successful in MTTs you need to be able to successfully outplay your opponents post-flop. This reduces the risk to your stack size while outplaying your opponent on the flop.
2. Deeper in MTTs, while a bet size may be small in relation to the size of the pot, it can still be large in relation to your opponent's stack.

Poker bet sizes, raise sizes, calling/shoving ranges, etc, all come from trends that grow based off of extensive experience, study and discussion within the MTT community. Players began realizing around 6-7 years ago that smaller raise sizes gave good players the ability to reduce variance by risking less of their stack and outplaying an opponent on the flop.



I kind of answered this in the last part, but overall it's because after study, discussion and viewing results players have realized this just works better.



Personally I feel very comfortable outplaying my opponent on the flop, so there is very little reason to risk a larger portion of my stack preflop when I can get a much better understanding of the hand on the flop and/or later streets.

Edit: PS this is in regards to tournament play, not cash games.

This pretty much sums it all up.
There are always exceptions to the rule, so to speak. The basic principal is that your chip stack is a tool used to apply pressure and gain chips off of other players. The number one goal in a tournament is to preserve your chips and out last opponents.

In early stages of the tournament (especially when there are no antes) there is little point in raising 2.2x for a few reasons:

1. Generally play is tighter
2. It is harder to win a large % of your opponents chips if you raise small
3. You are risking a really small portion of your stack and your stack utility doesn't change at all if you make it 3bb, 5bb, or 2.2bb when you are 50bb+ deep
4. There is a larger % of weaker players still in the field that are likely to make greater mistakes, giving you a great reward for your skill edge

As the tournament gets deeper, you can put an immense amount of pressure on players with a smaller raise size, while at the same time reducing the amount of your stack that you are risking. It is still just as easy to get stacks in if your trying to get max value, at the same time this means that smaller bets can be used to accomplish bluffs because you are always leveraging your whole stack.

No body wants to loose stack utility late in a tournament in a dicey situation.