Cash Game Spread Limit Recommendation (1 Viewer)

[SteveEH]

My post-COVID home game has been doing really well as a .50/$1 FIXED limit Hold'em game:

- Some friends who are newish to poker and didn't play in my pre-Covid games have become regulars.
- Aside from one COVID cancellation my table's always full.
- The last time we played I got Crazy Pineapple and Omaha into the rotation. This was great as I personally want it to be dealer's choice.

One of my long time friends doesn't like fixed limit and also likes PLO. I want to give him something to like, but I don't want to compromise the "win or lose about $20 in a night" expectation that has been set. Also, I really don't want to manage additional complexity. The idea of calculating the pot, or calculating how much more a player can shove all in for pots/cap limit makes me cringe. Last game when we switched between 5c/10c no limit and 50c/$1 fixed limit, we moved $10 in front of our nickle blind chips, and left about $30 behind them. This worked OK but I found myself unintentionally betting with chips from behind my nickles.

Spread limit seems easier to manage, and it would give my friend the opportunity to bet bigger. What should the spread be for a $40 buy in that should last all night? 10c/25c with a 25c-$5 spread?

I know @Lil Tuna ran a successful 2-10 spread limit game with a $100 buy in, but that spread doesn't seem like enough.

Thanks!

 

[Lil Tuna]

My post-COVID home game has been doing really well as a .50/$1 FIXED limit Hold'em game:

- Some friends who are newish to poker and didn't play in my pre-Covid games have become regulars.
- Aside from one COVID cancellation my table's always full.
- The last time we played I got Crazy Pineapple and Omaha into the rotation. This was great as I personally want it to be dealer's choice.

One of my long time friends doesn't like fixed limit and also likes PLO. I want to give him something to like, but I don't want to compromise the "win or lose about $20 in a night" expectation that has been set. Also, I really don't want to manage additional complexity. The idea of calculating the pot, or calculating how much more a player can shove all in for pots/cap limit makes me cringe. Last game when we switched between 5c/10c no limit and 50c/$1 fixed limit, we moved $10 in front of our nickle blind chips, and left about $30 behind them. This worked OK but I found myself unintentionally betting with chips from behind my nickles.

Spread limit seems easier to manage, and it would give my friend the opportunity to bet bigger. What should the spread be for a $40 buy in that should last all night? 10c/25c with a 25c-$5 spread?

I know @Lil Tuna ran a successful 2-10 spread limit game with a $100 buy in, but that spread doesn't seem like enough.

Thanks!

Your correct in the spread for my game not being enough. Problem with my game is that many of my players were used to playing for relatively larger stakes having mostly NLHE backgrounds and playing mostly at a $2/$5 level.

My spread limit should realistically have been $2/$30 or maybe even $2/$40. I capped it at $10 mostly to control the action in my game. The typical pot sizes in Omaha 8 and Stud 8 averaged $250 plus almost every hand. Capping the spread at $10 insured that I’d not lose my solid base of players as happens so often in Pot Limit structured games.

Goal was to keep the fish hungry to come back. I had one player once come to a $1/$2 NLHE cash game I hosted. Game was strictly NLHE all night. Guy proceeded to lose $2400 in that game and never did return after that.
This is a player that you want to slow bleed over time and not completely gut in one sitting. If we’d played spread limit that evening and he had only lost a grand, he probably would have returned to lose a grand several more times.

The .25c/$5 spread I think is a great starting point but I think you will find over time that it will grow larger. A player could easily get $200 deep in a spread limit such as you propose.
I personally would love to sit in this game with that spread, I may have to eventually propose it with the new group I’m playing with now in West Texas.
Best of luck with it and please keep this thread updated with your results, I’ll be very curious to hear how your group likes it.

 

[SteveEH]

Your correct in the spread for my game not being enough. Problem with my game is that many of my players were used to playing for relatively larger stakes having mostly NLHE backgrounds and playing mostly at a $2/$5 level.

My spread limit should realistically have been $2/$30 or maybe even $2/$40. I capped it at $10 mostly to control the action in my game. The typical pot sizes in Omaha 8 and Stud 8 averaged $250 plus almost every hand. Capping the spread at $10 insured that I’d not lose my solid base of players as happens so often in Pot Limit structured games.

Goal was to keep the fish hungry to come back. I had one player once come to a $1/$2 NLHE cash game I hosted. Game was strictly NLHE all night. Guy proceeded to lose $2400 in that game and never did return after that.
This is a player that you want to slow bleed over time and not completely gut in one sitting. If we’d played spread limit that evening and he had only lost a grand, he probably would have returned to lose a grand several more times.

The .25c/$5 spread I think is a great starting point but I think you will find over time that it will grow larger. A player could easily get $200 deep in a spread limit such as you propose.
I personally would love to sit in this game with that spread, I may have to eventually propose it with the new group I’m playing with now in West Texas.
Best of luck with it and please keep this thread updated with your results, I’ll be very curious to hear how your group likes it.

Thanks for the feedback!

My goal is also to have a sustainable game for the regulars. I experienced the same player retention problems in the past with no limit too, and I don't want to be recruiting all the time either!

Given a good chunk of your regs sounded like veteran 2/5 players, I can understand why your spread was so low. We're they the types to open raise/bet the max all the time too?

My hope with spread limit is that people will open for 3-5 BBs so we have room for reasonable sized bets on later streets. Given my game's recreational players and all the limping that happens, I think it may be reasonable to assume the .25-5 spread won't play as big as it would with a table full of experienced players or gamblers.

Thanks

 

[moose]

$40 max that is supposed to last all night?

.05-$2 and that is pushing it.

.25-$5? $40 could be gone in two hands. Personally I wouldn't cater to one player. If the game is too small, he can play elsewhere. Seems like everyone else is happy playing limit. If you want to introduce other games for low cost, run 2 $20 sngs per night and run PLO, pineapple etc. or even dealers choice as the games.

 

[SteveEH]

$40 max that is supposed to last all night?

.05-$2 and that is pushing it.

.25-$5? $40 could be gone in two hands. Personally I wouldn't cater to one player. If the game is too small, he can play elsewhere. Seems like everyone else is happy playing limit. If you want to introduce other games for low cost, run 2 $20 sngs per night and run PLO, pineapple etc. or even dealers choice as the games.

Ya $40 should last for the night (4-5 hours).

I normally wouldn't make exceptions for one player but we've known the guy forever... Maybe dealers choice and switching to 10NL with lower blinds like I did last game is all I should do.

Thx

 

[SteveEH]

Personally I wouldn't cater to one player. If the game is too small, he can play elsewhere.

What @moose said!!!

Update rant from last night's game.

I invited my long time friend and let everyone choose their cap for no limit - if you want $40 to last the night $10 cap, and if you're willing to risk more $20 cap.

My friend kept complaining how complicated it was. I've had side conversations with him about sustainability and friends that aren't poker players like us, but I guess he doesn't listen/care.

Another friend, a gambler who isn't a reg, refused to play his cap in a hand with me on his river bet and I had to remove his over bet 3 times after he kept throwing it back in the pot. I said "now you're pissing me off" and went on about the rules yada yada. Turns out he was trying to bluff me, with bottom fucking pair. What he didn't know was that I understand the maffs, I know he's a fucking degen, I'm calling him regardless of the extra $2 he wants to bet, and I'm SAVING HIM MONEY!!!

So I can have MORE side conversations with both of them (fuck that), or curate the players for a degen night (if incan stomach the idea of dealing with them again). I'm barely leaning towards that latter...

Rant off.

 

[SteveEH]

I tried .25-$5 spread limit last night. I asked people to bring $60 instead of the normal $40, and no one won/lost over $20. At one point one guy was down about $30 after a cooler, but he recovered was only down about $10 at the end of the night.

The $20 mark was probably on the low end, but at the same time I think the recommendations above aren't applicable to my game because the majority of players:

- Are passive. Lots of limping pre flop and rarely raising. No 3 betting pre flop, and no more than 2 betting and calling post.
- They don't understand how to size their bets in relation to the pot and extracting value. For example raising $2 pre flop and getting no action, to betting a quarter on the river with a decent/strong hand.
- In general they're just amateurs and aren't big gamblers.

Also, we were only playing 4 handed. It was mostly Omaha with some pineapple variants and a little hold'em. Shouldn't this mean more expected variance??

If I were to sprinkle in a couple of experienced players, we started seeing 3 bets pre flop and more appropriate sized bets on the remaining streets, I could see this getting more expensive.

 

[MeridianFC]

FWIW (it's been a while since I've run it) but we used to do $50 buy in and for the spread limit games (.25/.50) big bet was $5. It worked pretty well for what was a very friendly game.

 

[JustinInMN]

Personally, I wouldn't change the fixed limit game for one guy. If it's working for everyone else, it will sustain itself for a while. This also has the appearance of changing a game to accommodate one person which may or may not go over well with the others like that like structure as is. If you change to spread, and that guy starts winning, you are going to alienate the other players that didn't want the change.

I would just mix in some standard NL nights. My rule of thumb is to set NL stakes where players are comfortable losing 200-300 x BB in a night, if your target is $40ish stop loss, I would suggest $20 buy in and play 0.05-0.10 blinds. (Maybe 0.05-0.15 blinds)

The idea of calculating the pot, or calculating how much more a player can shove all in for pots/cap limit makes me cringe. Last game when we switched between 5c/10c no limit and 50c/$1 fixed limit, we moved $10 in front of our nickle blind chips, and left about $30 behind them. This worked OK but I found myself unintentionally betting with chips from behind my nickles.

There is a easier way to do this. When you scoop all the bets at the end of the round, leave to the side of the pot the highest amount bet on the last street. (Position it as if it were a side pot, but you know it's part of the main pot.)

Let's describe a hand with 0.05-0.10 blinds for an example. Someone opens for 0.40 pre and 4 players go in and the blinds fold. That's a 1.75 in the pot. Pull 0.40 to the side just for counting toward the cap, while it's still part of the pot. (Any folded blinds, or abandoned wagers that didn't call the final amount do not matter for the count stack.)

So on the flop, say 3 players continue for 1.25 each. You add that 1.25 to the 0.40 in the count stack, and now you "running stack" is 1.65, the total pot 4.50. If you know the running stack has 1.65, you are 8.35 away from the hand cap before being considered "all-in."

On the Turn then 2 players continue for 2.25 each. You add the 2.25 to the 1.65 and have 3.90 in the count stack and total pot of 9.00. With 3.90 in the count stack, you know you are 6.10 away from the hand cap, which is the max on the river before being considered "all-in."

This seems much easier than trying to regulate chip positioning in player's stacks.

Personally, I wish hand-cap games would catch on, it's a far more fair "governor" of NL than table caps. But table caps are just too popular.

 

[SteveEH]

Personally, I wouldn't change the fixed limit game for one guy. If it's working for everyone else, it will sustain itself for a while. This also has the appearance of changing a game to accommodate one person which may or may not go over well with the others like that like structure as is. If you change to spread, and that guy starts winning, you are going to alienate the other players that didn't want the change.

I would just mix in some standard NL nights. My rule of thumb is to set NL stakes where players are comfortable losing 200-300 x BB in a night, if your target is $40ish stop loss, I would suggest $20 buy in and play 0.05-0.10 blinds. (Maybe 0.05-0.15 blinds)



There is a easier way to do this. When you scoop all the bets at the end of the round, leave to the side of the pot the highest amount bet on the last street. (Position it as if it were a side pot, but you know it's part of the main pot.)

Let's describe a hand with 0.05-0.10 blinds for an example. Someone opens for 0.40 pre and 4 players go in and the blinds fold. That's a 1.75 in the pot. Pull 0.40 to the side just for counting toward the cap, while it's still part of the pot. (Any folded blinds, or abandoned wagers that didn't call the final amount do not matter for the count stack.)

So on the flop, say 3 players continue for 1.25 each. You add that 1.25 to the 0.40 in the count stack, and now you "running stack" is 1.65, the total pot 4.50. If you know the running stack has 1.65, you are 8.35 away from the hand cap before being considered "all-in."

On the Turn then 2 players continue for 2.25 each. You add the 2.25 to the 1.65 and have 3.90 in the count stack and total pot of 9.00. With 3.90 in the count stack, you know you are 6.10 away from the hand cap, which is the max on the river before being considered "all-in."

This seems much easier than trying to regulate chip positioning in player's stacks.

Personally, I wish hand-cap games would catch on, it's a far more fair "governor" of NL than table caps. But table caps are just too popular.

Thanks this is helpful! I'll definitely give cap limit another try...

 

[grebe]

I LOVE limit. This would be my preferred style for all home games.
I like big bet....NLHE and PLO. I recognize this is what most poor players want to play and is The Path to win at poker in today's world.

I absolutely DESPISE spread limit. It's the worst of both worlds, and should not be a thing. Any time I play spread limit, I just treat it as a limit game and either check or bet max. @Lil Tuna game pretty much played like this when I played in it.....when people bet, they just bet max.

My advice, have a limit night and then have a big bet night. Dont do spread, it's confusing for no good reason. Especially if there isnt much 3 and 4 betting to begin with. My understanding from Tuna was his game was spread limit so his fishy players could protect themselves from the aggros by betting and raising the minimum until they hit the cap....but I never saw this happen. If there isnt a whole bunch of raising, no reason to go away from either limit or big bet.

 

[chipchipchip]

I invited my long time friend and let everyone choose their cap for no limit - if you want $40 to last the night $10 cap, and if you're willing to risk more $20 cap.

Are you saying different players have a different cap all night? How would this even work? Seems difficult to keep up with what each players cap is, and side pots could be a nightmare to sort out.

And people angling (either on purpose or accidentally) seems too likely . Sounds like a recipe for bad blood, hurt feelings, and rec players staying home.

 

[JustinInMN]

Are you saying different players have a different cap all night? How would this even work? Seems difficult to keep up with what each players cap is, and side pots could be a nightmare to sort out.

And people angling (either on purpose or accidentally) seems too likely . Sounds like a recipe for bad blood, hurt feelings, and rec players staying home.

I do agree, letting players set their own limit for every hand is a recipe for disaster. There is a decent middle ground that may work. Introduce the concept of "overs."

https://poker.fandom.com/wiki/Overs

We do this in my limit mix game which I have a couple times a year. Basically the limit of the game is 2/4. But players may opt in to "overs" and if any round starts with only overs players, the stakes double to 4/8.

How I would apply this to a "no-limit game?" Basically set the main hand-cap to $10. If a round starts with only "overs" players, the hand cap now expands to $20.

 

[SteveEH]

Are you saying different players have a different cap all night? How would this even work? Seems difficult to keep up with what each players cap is, and side pots could be a nightmare to sort out.

And people angling (either on purpose or accidentally) seems too likely . Sounds like a recipe for bad blood, hurt feelings, and rec players staying home.

Yes players could choose their cap, but for each orbit. It was tough to track and I won't do that again.

The spread limit worked well with my group who don't max bet every time as @grebe suggested. I will try it again and monitor the results...