SOHE Hand Split (1 Viewer)

[Jimulacrum]

Game is $0.25/$0.50 5-handed pot-limit SOHE. Effective stacks are in the $200 to $400 range. Hero is SB.

I don't recall all the details of the hand, but it was @jbutler in the BB, @Chippy McChiperson UTG, @H|Q on the CO, and @bergs on the button. One raise (from the button, I believe).

Hero is dealt :. How do you split this hand, what is your preflop action, and what's your plan for post-flop?

(SOHE = permanently split your 6 hole cards into a hold'em hand and an Omaha hand preflop, before your action. Typical hold'em board and betting rounds. At showdown, the pot is split between the best hold'em hand and best Omaha hand.)

 

[stocky]

Fold. Sohe world champ has position on us.

 

[DrStrange]

I don't know what I am doing but . . . .

for hold'em
for Omaha

Flat OOP and see a flop

 

[stocky]

I don't know what I am doing but . . . .

I also don't know what I'm doing but HE Q9dd and AsKsKcQc was my first thought.

 

[gopherblue]

I also don't know what I'm doing but HE Q9dd and AsKsKcQc was my first thought.

I had exactly the same thought.

 

[slisk250]

I don't know what I am doing but . . . .

for hold'em
for Omaha

Flat OOP and see a flop

^this - no brainer IMO

You have three possibilities for flushes and strong straight this way. I'd rather split the cowboys to keep all flushes and straights a possibility...better than second best with trips.

 

[Rhodeman77]

^^^^
My exact thoughts. Want to keep the all the flushes possible for sure. Still have a strong hold'em hand and lots of straight possibilities if any Broadway cards flop.

I like to flat call pre-flop as well but if flop anything really strong on either side push hard.

 

[GrumpyCatMalaka]

I like what @stocky set up. Your weakest flush draw is on the holdem side where it's more likely to be good. The kings are still together so the Big boat is in play. The other way I might do it is holdem and omaha .
You put your nut flush draw in your omaha hand you can get straights from both sides giving you a possible scoop.

Stocky's I think is best.

Flat pre-flop. The pot will bloat itself with this group.

 

[detroitdad]

I also don't know what I'm doing but HE Q9dd and AsKsKcQc was my first thought.

That's probably how I would split them

 

[Rhodeman77]

I like the AK on the hold'em side because most put their pocket pairs on the hold'em side. K&Q's are all but dead there, so JJ is the most like holding we need to beat. Q 9 gives us little chance to do that.

Any flop with an A and another Broadway card or an A with 2 to one of our flush draws is huge and we can get it in very easy.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The other way I might do it is holdem and omaha .
You put your nut flush draw in your omaha hand you can get straights from both sides giving you a possible scoop.

This is what I ended up doing. I figured that keeping both pairs together was not worth breaking up the flush and straight possibilities. Ultimately, neither pair seemed incredibly valuable compared to the chance of catching a tandem wrap and OESD, plus all three suits.

This was the other split I considered:

for hold'em
for Omaha

IMO, the trouble with this one is that it's very one-or-the-other. A spade flush would be nice but would make my Omaha hand weak unless I also spike a queen and fill up. A TJx flop would be nice for Omaha but would leave me drawing very slim in hold'em. Spiking a queen in Omaha and a pair in hold'em means my set is not top set, and it opens up straight possibilities with cards I don't block. I can improve one or both hands significantly and still not be super-confident.

The way I split it, it's a mega-wrap setup. That TJx flop comes out and I'm ready to play for stacks, and I can also hit a lot of two-way big pair type hands, not to mention flushes. Out of position in an actiony game, being able to smash the shit out of the flop like that seems like the SOHE version of set-mining.

Is it the best split? I don't know. I'm pretty sure that truly optimal splits are kinda rare in this game, because game conditions dramatically affect how you'll actually end up playing the hand. But this one can't be too bad, right?

 

[BGinGA]

I think you have to play the player. Button probably has:



so set up your hand to best play against that. Your diamond and club draws have less value, so:

for hold'em
for Omaha

Flat call Bergs and fold after Chippy re-raises.


Against a normal crowd not under the big top, I like for hold'em.

 

[B.C.]

I'm a fish but the aim of the game is to scoop so I'm Probably going to split it like this:

 

[Jimulacrum]

The rest of the hand was pretty short but made me think about the split a little more.

The flop comes . Which split would you rather have with this board?

I had the / split, as mentioned above. I bet and everyone folded, so nothing exciting to speak of. It did occur to me that I could have hit the set of kings in addition to the second-nut flush, instead of the flush with only top pair. That would be a devastating hand for anyone to get up against, though of course it would've been wasted.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I think with that flop I like the diamonds in the Holdem hand.

 

[bergs]

With this crew, it's rarely HU.
You want to scoop but arranging your hand on this flop for a scoop makes it vulnerable to be 2nd best on both and get scooped yourself.

Hope to get 2-3 callers and arrange top set on HE and 2nd nut flush on PLO. The flop is super raggy from a straightening perspective. If the board pairs, you take HE. If the board doesn't pair, you at least get the HE side and may very well get PLO with the 2nd nut flush as well.

You really want to play SOHE to lock up one side and have a shot at the other. It's almost impossible to play this like PLO8 and try to scoop every hand. It's just too rare that it happens but being 2nd best on both sides is devastating.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I play the game much like Bergs says. It is so hard to scoop in this game if it gets to show down. I find the best chance to win the hand out right is to have a lock on one (or close enough to it) and a draw at least on the other side that you can bomb the pot and hopefully win it by getting people to fold hands that could beat your weaker side but still aren't locks themselves.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

The key to winning in SOHE is this: You need to take a deep breath, become one with nature, feel what cards are coming, and set your hand accordingly. In this case, KK in hold em, and AQQ9 in Omaha.

 

[bergs]

The key to winning in SOHE is this: You need to take a deep breath, become one with nature, feel what cards are coming, and set your hand accordingly. In this case, KK in hold em, and AQQ9 in Omaha.

If this is accurate, you, sir, are a stone cold fucking druid.

 

[onerand]

Tough one. I think I would have put the diamonds in holdem.

 

[Ben]

Breaking KK or QQ 5-handed is a mistake - a high pair in holdem is crazy powerful if you flop any kind of equity on the omaha side, as an overpair in HE will often take that side by itself (at a full table of 7 that pretty much means AA only since it shows up so often with 6 cards, but 5-handed KK and QQ are easily in play as well.)

In this particular case since we have KK also I would put the QQ on the HE side leaving the NFD intact for omaha, and repot pre (y'all do know that Bergs' button open range in any game includes Chance and Community Chest cards, right???)

 

[ssanel54]

Breaking KK or QQ 5-handed is a mistake - a high pair in holdem is crazy powerful if you flop any kind of equity on the omaha side, as an overpair in HE will often take that side by itself (at a full table of 7 that pretty much means AA only since it shows up so often with 6 cards, but 5-handed KK and QQ are easily in play as well.)

In this particular case since we have KK also I would put the QQ on the HE side leaving the NFD intact for omaha, and repot pre (y'all do know that Bergs' button open range in any game includes Chance and Community Chest cards, right???)

This was my initial thought as well. Throw the Queens on the hold em side since you are holding two kings and one Ace so a better pair is less likely. Id much rather be chasing a Nut Flush with the high pair on the HE side as opposed to the other way around.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Breaking KK or QQ 5-handed is a mistake - a high pair in holdem is crazy powerful if you flop any kind of equity on the omaha side, as an overpair in HE will often take that side by itself (at a full table of 7 that pretty much means AA only since it shows up so often with 6 cards, but 5-handed KK and QQ are easily in play as well.)

In this particular case since we have KK also I would put the QQ on the HE side leaving the NFD intact for omaha, and repot pre (y'all do know that Bergs' button open range in any game includes Chance and Community Chest cards, right???)

To put a pair in hold'em requires a split of either / or / . It always results in a single-suited Omaha hand with little straight potential, relying on a pair less than aces for its main strength. It basically throws away almost all straight and flush potential for the whole hand, in favor of two marginal pairs.

I might be inclined to do this if I were in a game where a 3-bet could isolate a loose raiser, especially if I had some kind of good position. As it was, a 3-bet would leave me playing a probable 4-way pot in worst position with an awkward SPR.

And that's assuming AA isn't out there to 4-bet me. AA in hold'em is not an uncommon holding, even 5-handed. If it's out and raises, then I'm just shutting myself out of the hand. I'm way behind in hold'em and have a merely decent Omaha hand, and I'm not even getting sufficient odds to set-mine.

There are very few SOHE hands that are worth jamming IMO, especially out of position, and QQ and KK are just not that strong in hold'em.

 

[bergs]

To put a pair in hold'em requires a split of either / or / . It always results in a single-suited Omaha hand with little straight potential, relying on a pair less than aces for its main strength. It basically throws away almost all straight and flush potential for the whole hand, in favor of two marginal pairs.

I might be inclined to do this if I were in a game where a 3-bet could isolate a loose raiser, especially if I had some kind of good position. As it was, a 3-bet would leave me playing a probable 4-way pot in worst position with an awkward SPR.

And that's assuming AA isn't out there to 4-bet me. AA in hold'em is not an uncommon holding, even 5-handed. If it's out and raises, then I'm just shutting myself out of the hand. I'm way behind in hold'em and have a merely decent Omaha hand, and I'm not even getting sufficient odds to set-mine.

There are very few SOHE hands that are worth jamming IMO, especially out of position, and QQ and KK are just not that strong in hold'em.

It goes without saying that with a pocket pair at SOHE you're set mining. Your question was around how I'd split the hands on that particular flop, and my answer was top set on the hold'em side. The math is probably unpossible (lol) but top set at HE on that board has got to be a premium holding worth jamming with.

 

[Ben]

To put a pair in hold'em requires a split of either / or / . It always results in a single-suited Omaha hand with little straight potential, relying on a pair less than aces for its main strength. It basically throws away almost all straight and flush potential for the whole hand, in favor of two marginal pairs.

I might be inclined to do this if I were in a game where a 3-bet could isolate a loose raiser, especially if I had some kind of good position. As it was, a 3-bet would leave me playing a probable 4-way pot in worst position with an awkward SPR.

And that's assuming AA isn't out there to 4-bet me. AA in hold'em is not an uncommon holding, even 5-handed. If it's out and raises, then I'm just shutting myself out of the hand. I'm way behind in hold'em and have a merely decent Omaha hand, and I'm not even getting sufficient odds to set-mine.

There are very few SOHE hands that are worth jamming IMO, especially out of position, and QQ and KK are just not that strong in hold'em.

I have to disagree - and if it matters, SOHE has historically been my best circus game by far (story of my life - win money in SOHE, dump it in PLO8...)

A 3-bet will generally get SOME folds pre (maybe one or two of the 5 players total) and more importantly you can then bet a lot of flops for an amount that people aren't comfortable paying to take one off without something strong on both sides. If we get 4-bet pre (always AA) that is another story, but in this spot it happens rarely enough that I'm not too concerned with it (and we can still get out without getting into a world of trouble in that case.)

Also, I can't emphasize enough how much top set (on either side) >>>>>>> straight and flush draws. I want to be the guy shoving the river with kings full - sometimes you get called by the guy with the ace-high flush on the same side and scoop, sometimes he has the other side and folds and you scoop what's out there - either way, you end up with the WHOLE pot a lot more often than by taking the passive line.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It goes without saying that with a pocket pair at SOHE you're set mining. Your question was around how I'd split the hands on that particular flop, and my answer was top set on the hold'em side. The math is probably unpossible (lol) but top set at HE on that board has got to be a premium holding worth jamming with.

Keeping the set is definitely priority given the flop. My post that you quoted is in response to Ben's preflop plan.

I have to disagree - and if it matters, SOHE has historically been my best circus game by far (story of my life - win money in SOHE, dump it in PLO8...)

A 3-bet will generally get SOME folds pre (maybe one or two of the 5 players total) and more importantly you can then bet a lot of flops for an amount that people aren't comfortable paying to take one off without something strong on both sides. If we get 4-bet pre (always AA) that is another story, but in this spot it happens rarely enough that I'm not too concerned with it (and we can still get out without getting into a world of trouble in that case.)

Also, I can't emphasize enough how much top set (on either side) >>>>>>> straight and flush draws. I want to be the guy shoving the river with kings full - sometimes you get called by the guy with the ace-high flush on the same side and scoop, sometimes he has the other side and folds and you scoop what's out there - either way, you end up with the WHOLE pot a lot more often than by taking the passive line.

I think you're underestimating the preflop looseness of this game. This is going to be a multi-way pot the vast majority of the time—unless someone re-pots (and we have to fold). This is a premium speculative hand, but it's still a speculative hand; we need to hit an unlikely flop to realize its value. This is true whether we structure it for the straight/flush hands or the big sets. I can see a case for splitting it either way, but I think 3-betting would be a mistake.

 

[Ben]

Keeping the set is definitely priority given the flop. My post that you quoted is in response to Ben's preflop plan.



I think you're underestimating the preflop looseness of this game. This is going to be a multi-way post the vast majority of the time—unless someone re-pots (and we have to fold). This is a premium speculative hand, but it's still a speculative hand; we need to hit an unlikely flop to realize its value. This is true whether we structure it for the straight/flush hands or the big sets. I can see a case for splitting it either way, but I think 3-betting would be a mistake.

With the QQ/AKK9 split I'm still firing on probably ~75% of flops, and expecting to either take down or chop the pot most of time by the end of the hand. That's a lot easier to make happen when the pot's bigger from a 3-bet and people don't want to call with potentially second-best hands or nut draws on one side only.

Take this particular instance - I'd much rather have top set in PLO and QxQd holdem on the K72ddd flop than flop a 2nd-nut flush and one pair with no redraw. I'm almost never behind to one player on both sides, NEVER drawing dead, and I'm happy to blast away, pretty much never fold, and hopefully get small flushes with not much going on on the other side to fold (or outdraw them by the river.) If you have 2nd nut/top pair, you basically have to either bet-fold or check-call and pray for half (you're going to get scooped, or end up having to fold, a lot more often.)

 

[guinness]

Game is $0.25/$0.50 5-handed pot-limit SOHE. Effective stacks are in the $200 to $400 range. Hero is SB.

I don't recall all the details of the hand, but it was @jbutler in the BB, @Chippy McChiperson UTG, @H|Q on the CO, and @bergs on the button. One raise (from the button, I believe).

Hero is dealt :. How do you split this hand, what is your preflop action, and what's your plan for post-flop?

(SOHE = permanently split your 6 hole cards into a hold'em hand and an Omaha hand preflop, before your action. Typical hold'em board and betting rounds. At showdown, the pot is split between the best hold'em hand and best Omaha hand.)

These hands are always the last to be placed down on the felt when people are deciding. Holy moly.

I could care less about preserving 3rd nut diamonds, any diamond flop usually has a better flush rep'd when many handed to see the flop. However, I'm keeping the diamonds for different reasons.

I'm not breaking up HUGE pairs in favor of non-nut flushes. F that.

Although nut spades dealt, my plan of attack is to break up the spades here knowing I will pot with reckless abandon if spades get on the board, knowing that QXss or less will fold. I think having both top spades hurts in that flush scenario, since its easier to fold QXss vs KXss.

With above strategy in mind, I'm KK'ing on the HE side, with AQQ9 on the holdem [Edit PLO duh] side. I think this will handle a wave of boards that will ship half or more to me one way or another.

If a SOHE calculator were developed, I'd be shocked if all palatable scenarios have any large variation between them with what people have voiced.

 

[slisk250]

Although nut spades dealt, my plan of attack is to break up the spades here knowing I will pot with reckless abandon if spades get on the board, knowing that QXss or less will fold. I think having both top spades hurts in that flush scenario, since its easier to fold QXss vs KXss.

People fold at Truman's House?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I was nitting it up all weekend.