Sizing your bets to get it all in on the river (17 Viewers)

[upNdown]

I read a lot about this in strategy threads, where especially when hero appears to be way ahead, you size your bets so you can make an all-in bet on the river (that is presumably pot-sizedish?)

Is this a thing that people actually do? Is this a smart thing to do?

I come from a tournament background, and I don’t think this is something people normally do in tournament play - I assume this is a cash game thing?
But this is something I’ve never done in cash or tournament. I size my bets for plenty of different reasons. But the only time I’m ever looking to the river is when effective stacks will be an issue, and end up reducing my or my opponent’s options. Like for example, if I think I’m way ahead, yeah, I want to get some money in, but I don’t want to bet so much (with an eye toward a huge river bet) that I scare the guy off on the flop or the turn.

Anyway, please share your thoughts.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Call it geometric bet sizing, you'll find some fun articles about it. Not purely cash game and its an aggressive approach, but its the thought that, whether you have the nuts or not, you're threatening your opponent's stack by the river. It makes bluffs stronger because they aren't just calling your flop or turn bet, they're watching the pot grow, expecting that big river bet, and this puts lots of pressure on their medium strength hands. You polarize your own hand, leaving the opponent wondering if you're strong or not, while theirs is trapped in the middle of your range. If I'm sizing correctly, my river shove will look more natural because its less than/about the size of the pot, as opposed to an overshove that might scare people away.

Going into a meeting, will check back on this thread later though.

This article is pretty mathy, but I like how they break down the theory.
https://www.mttpokerschool.com/single-post/what-is-geometric-bet-sizing-and-when-should-you-use-it#:~:text=Here's a great definition from,entire stack has been bet.”

 

[Tonystark137]

I have used it in Tournaments and Cash games where I want to get stacks in. I have also picked it up when villain bets a size that leaves me with pot size or less behind. Generally I'm expecting a shove on the river.

 

[demonnic]

Definitely a thing, and I've used it to good effect in cash games. Can make for a great bluff, but also good for extracting maximum value from sticky opponents when you're sitting on a nuttish hand.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I have used it in Tournaments and Cash games where I want to get stacks in. I have also picked it up when villain bets a size that leaves me with pot size or less behind. Generally I'm expecting a shove on the river.

This is a big flag that he's a thinking opponent as well if it fits in perfect. Bluff or not it tells me they may have been planning it rather than just ape-ing out.

 

[DirtyTIVA]

Overbets are all the rage now too. Hard to do with $100 buy ins.

 

[Tonystark137]

This is a big flag that he's a thinking opponent as well if it fits in perfect. Bluff or not it tells me they may have been planning it rather than just ape-ing out.

Yep, definitely picked it up and I tend to just fold with very marginal hand or just call when I have the nuts.

 

[Highli99]

Small blinds, deep stacks, taking it to the streets. That's where the game gets beautifully complex. Always playing for stacks. Geometric betting is definitely one way to develop a line. Not the only way, but a good one.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

I think to use it effectively understand SPR first.

https://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/concepts/spr/

 

[upNdown]

I think to use it effectively understand SPR first.

https://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/concepts/spr/

Good point. And I didn’t word it very well, but I was trying to say that that’s the sort of thing that’s always a consideration to me.
I figured SPR out over the years, intuitively - like, you see how situations play out enough times, and you figure out how to avoid them or take advantage of them, without ever having read about SPR. I’d bet that Mike Matusow has a better grasp of handling SPR issues than most people here, and I’d also bet that he doesn’t know the term SPR.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I’d bet that Mike Matusow has a better grasp of handling SPR issues than most people here, and I’d also bet that he doesn’t know the term SPR.

I think you'd be right a decade ago, but the man's been playing poker professionally for decades on and off, he knows what SPR is. Lot of pros want us mooks to think its all tells and feel, but they've spent time studying.

 

[upNdown]

I think you'd be right a decade ago, but the man's been playing poker professionally for decades on and off, he knows what SPR is. Lot of pros want us mooks to think its all tells and feel, but they've spent time studying.

I agree with you regarding most pros, but Mikey’s kinda special. I heard him and Daniel on a podcast together a couple of years ago, and he literally couldn’t answer the question “how many combos of AK are in the deck?”
But I digress. (And I’m always rooting for Mike.)

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I agree with you regarding most pros, but Mikey’s kinda special. I heard him and Daniel on a podcast together a couple of years ago, and he literally couldn’t answer the question “how many combos of AK are in the deck?”
But I digress. (And I’m always rooting for Mike.)

Fair lol, he is a special case, good call. I do wish him well, grew up in poker watching him breakdown.

 

[upNdown]

Call it geometric bet sizing, you'll find some fun articles about it. Not purely cash game and its an aggressive approach, but its the thought that, whether you have the nuts or not, you're threatening your opponent's stack by the river. It makes bluffs stronger because they aren't just calling your flop or turn bet, they're watching the pot grow, expecting that big river bet, and this puts lots of pressure on their medium strength hands. You polarize your own hand, leaving the opponent wondering if you're strong or not, while theirs is trapped in the middle of your range. If I'm sizing correctly, my river shove will look more natural because its less than/about the size of the pot, as opposed to an overshove that might scare people away.

Going into a meeting, will check back on this thread later though.

This article is pretty mathy, but I like how they break down the theory.
https://www.mttpokerschool.com/single-post/what-is-geometric-bet-sizing-and-when-should-you-use-it#:~:text=Here's a great definition from,entire stack has been bet.”

Thanks. This stuff is painful to me; I think I’m allergic to GTO - I look at those charts and my brain screams out in agony. I think it’s part laziness and part “we all learn differently” and those charts are the furthest thing from intuitive, to me.

But there’s a lot of value in understanding the concepts, without knowing exactly how to execute.

 

[Kain8]

Obviously, not every hand you play will result in an all-in between yourself or your opponent(s). But playing in a manner that doesn't take into account relative stack sizes as well as SPR is penny wise, pound foolish.

Unless you're playing VERY deep stacks (300bb minimum) in either tournaments or cash, you should be structuring your bets in a way that leverages your whole stack on later streets. Benefits of this approach are:

• To make drawing hands pay incorrect pot odds.

• Making any raise / check-raise very expensive for your opponent(s) to execute. This is especially informative against unknown opponents because until proven otherwise, those aggressive actions mean absolute strength.

• Tying in from the previous point, realizing a large majority (or all) of your value on earlier streets when you get action on your really strong hands. Typically any big-bet pot that has bet, raise, re-raise after the initial round is going to make one side either be all-in, or be pot committed at the very least.

• Building meaningful pots against weaker players.

Detriments of this approach are:

• Somewhat player dependent. Even slightly competent players (in tournaments) value their own stack far more than chasing or calling bets, especially when ICMs are apparent when in the money.

• The window of opportunity to implement this can be very narrow or never come up in a specific session given the stack sizes, betting structure, starting hands you receive, etc.

• Having a player trap you with a very strong hand on later streets knowing that you'll potentially bet their hand for them.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Thanks. This stuff is painful to me; I think I’m allergic to GTO - I look at those charts and my brain screams out in agony. I think it’s part laziness and part “we all learn differently” and those charts are the furthest thing from intuitive, to me.

But there’s a lot of value in understanding the concepts, without knowing exactly how to execute.

I understand that and feel kind of similar. Ignore the charts then and just think about polarization: you intuitively know this, your betting is telling a story that you either have a bluff or a very strong hand, this forces the majority of medium-strength hands to struggle when playing against you. This bet sizing makes those decisions more challenging and affords your opponent's more chances to screw up.

You don't need specific hand ranges to use this, but knowing how having bigger or smaller stacks affect which hands you're using will help. You know players in your home game that will call 1 BB off a 8 BB stack, we love these players lol; other players have an inelastic range, quickly calling 6 BB as soon as they would 2 BB when they have top pair, these reads can help us use geometric bet sizing, understanding when we want to extract value.

 

[detroitdad]

I size my bets so that I can get it all in preflop, or on the flop.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

I size my bets so that I can get it all in preflop, or on the flop.

Me in 2009 30 tabling microstakes

 

[nano617]

Like for example, if I think I’m way ahead, yeah, I want to get some money in, but I don’t want to bet so much (with an eye toward a huge river bet) that I scare the guy off on the flop or the turn.

If you wanna maximize what you get paid with strong hands, you have to bet bigger. Don’t ever size your bets to always get called. If you wanted to always get called, you’d bet 1 big blind. So don’t be afraid to bet bigger like 75% on the turn even 150% and make the most money you can when called. Always remember too that all they have to do is not believe you and you get paid

 

[muneyjordan]

Great thread to read through after reviewing some hands from last night's home game... I've basically been using geometric bet sizing without even being familiar with the term lol, good bullet point to add to my list of things to be going over.