Tourney Single table poker chip structure (1 Viewer)

[Organista1]

I know this has probably been asked already but I’m looking for a good structure. How many BB’s should I start with? I want to invest in a chip set that can accommodate single and multiple tables. Looking for denomination help as well. Sorry I’m new. Thank you

 

[shorticus]

Here’s a structure I put together on my own for a 15 player tourney (my games will most likely not grow bigger).

I haven’t gotten a chance to put it in action yet, but I’m confident that it will work. I got a cheap set of chips to test this theory and that way if it doesn’t work, I’ve wasted at most 30 bucks for cheap chips with a pretty decent design.

 

[Mr Winberg]

View attachment 311256
Here’s a structure I put together on my own for a 15 player tourney (my games will most likely not grow bigger).

I haven’t gotten a chance to put it in action yet, but I’m confident that it will work. I got a cheap set of chips to test this theory and that way if it doesn’t work, I’ve wasted at most 30 bucks for cheap chips with a pretty decent design.

That structure is a super turbo. It's extremely aggressive. Skill will hardly play a role, it will be all-in-or-fold poker way too early. After an hour a starting stack is down to 6.25 big blinds. Sorry for sounding harsh. A rule you'll learn here at PCF is to never double the blinds. Some make an exception for the first increase, but other don't even allow that.

I know this has probably been asked already but I’m looking for a good structure. How many BB’s should I start with? I want to invest in a chip set that can accommodate single and multiple tables. Looking for denomination help as well. Sorry I’m new. Thank you

You are going to get a ton of advice! To make sure the advice suits you, please answer the following:

• How many players do you want to support as a max?
• What would be the typical amount of players?
• How long may the tournaments run including breaks?
• Will you be allowing rebuys/addons? If so, any limit?
• What is the air velocity of an unladen swallow?

Oh, and get samples before buying!

 

[pltrgyst]

What is the air velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or European?

Please be precise when you're giving advice!

 

[Mr Winberg]

Here's a pretty standard one, though. Start with 10000, 15000, 20000, etc depending on how deep you want it to run. The tournament will probably end before the level where there are a total of ~20 big blinds in play, but there are no guarantees.
I'm lazy, so I won't write the small blinds

BB (SB = BB/2)
100
150
200
300
* break and color up T25 *
400
600
800
1200
1600
* break and color up T100
2k
3k
* short break and color up T500
4k
6k
8k
12k
16k
* break and color up T1000
20k
30k etc...

Based on the "20 big blinds rule" you can guestimate the last level based on the chips in play (starting stacks and, if allowed, rebuys and addons), and then you set the level lengths and break lengths to meet your deadline. You can shorten the last few levels since few players will be left because they will play more hands per level anyway.

 

[shorticus]

@Mr Winberg not harsh at all. I actually appreciate your comments. How long do you think the blinds should be left, or how would you suggest increasing.

 

[Organista1]

That structure is a super turbo. It's extremely aggressive. Skill will hardly play a role, it will be all-in-or-fold poker way too early. After an hour a starting stack is down to 6.25 big blinds. Sorry for sounding harsh. A rule you'll learn here at PCF is to never double the blinds. Some make an exception for the first increase, but other don't even allow that.


You are going to get a ton of advice! To make sure the advice suits you, please answer the following:

• How many players do you want to support as a max?
• What would be the typical amount of players?
• How long may the tournaments run including breaks?
• Will you be allowing rebuys/addons? If so, any limit?
• What is the air velocity of an unladen swallow?

Oh, and get samples before buying!

I want a chip set to support a min of 10 players max of 50 players

Annnd don’t know the velocity of an unladen swallow lol

Here's a pretty standard one, though. Start with 10000, 15000, 20000, etc depending on how deep you want it to run. The tournament will probably end before the level where there are a total of ~20 big blinds in play, but there are no guarantees.
I'm lazy, so I won't write the small blinds

BB (SB = BB/2)
100
150
200
300
* break and color up T25 *
400
600
800
1200
1600
* break and color up T100
2k
3k
* short break and color up T500
4k
6k
8k
12k
16k
* break and color up T1000
20k
30k etc...

Based on the "20 big blinds rule" you can guestimate the last level based on the chips in play (starting stacks and, if allowed, rebuys and addons), and then you set the level lengths and break lengths to meet your deadline. You can shorten the last few levels since few players will be left because they will play more hands per level anyway.

I like that structure.. what does the ‘T’ stand for? I’ve seen people put T25 or T-whatever?

 

[Mr Winberg]

@Mr Winberg not harsh at all. I actually appreciate your comments. How long do you think the blinds should be left, or how would you suggest increasing.

I suggest an increase along the lines of post #5. How long depends on the duration of the tournament.

Example from one of my own tournaments:
20 player freezout, aiming to be done in 5h30min (or 330 minutes) including breaks. Using the structure in post #5. Starting stacks of 20000 means 400k in play. Since I use a big blind ante the tournament should end with around 30 big blinds left, which is the 6k/12k level. That's 15 levels and 3 breaks. With 20 minute levels that's 300 minutes of poker. The first two breaks are 10 minutes (lots of chips to color up) the third break is 5 minutes (few players and few T500 chips so 5 minutes is enough). Drawing the final table usually sparks a 5 minute impromptu break, so that's 330 minutes in total.

That should be good, but there are no guarantees:

I'm glad I wrote that disclaimer. I hosted a T20k freezout tournament on Saturday for 18 degens. With on-time-bonus and rounding up on color-ups there was around 400k in play towards the end. I had planned on it ending at the 8k/16k level at the latest, but the final three lasted long and it wasn't down to heads up until the last minute of that level.

The next level had a steep increase to 12k/24k and was only 16 minutes long (I call this the "time to leave" level). With around 8 BBs each they managed to survive the whole level!

The next level (the "Still here? GTFO!" level) is 20k/40k and only lasts 12 minutes. I have no idea how, cause I was busy destroying the cash game (which may or may not be true), but somehow 5 BBs each was enough for them to stay afloat! WTF???

The next level, 30k/60 (or the "how is this even possible!?" level) finally ended things. I'm not sure why, but it seems that having just 3.3 BBs per player causes them to make rash decisions...

I have barely had a tournament survive past 30 BBs left in years, and never ever had one survive 20 (except turbo STTs). I didn't think I'd ever experience one surviving to 6.7!

 

[shorticus]

Interesting...I'm going to consider this and adjust accordingly.

Thanks for responding.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Note: Having a single rebuy, in my experience the rebuy rate is ~30%. Using starting stacks of T15000 would result in roughly the same amount of chips as post 8, so the same structure could be used.
Using a prebuy structure where everyone gets a starting stack of T10000 where an eliminated player is automatically rebought during the rebuy period and the rest get an addon would result in exactly the same math as post 8.

It's all about the estimated nr of chips in play. My point with this post is that you can use the same chip set for different types of tournaments by varying the starting stacks:
Unlimited rebuy fest? Start with T5k.
Freezout but only 13 players show up? Start with 30k or add 2 minutes to each level. Etc...

 

[Mr Winberg]

Interesting...I'm going to consider this and adjust accordingly.

Thanks for responding.

No worries. With any luck the Structure King himself will make an appearance in this thread, my best advice then is to read, re-read, understand, then read again from the BGinning and hopefully reach enlightenment.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I want a chip set to support a min of 10 players max of 50 players

50! That's quite tournament, I like it! I would use T10000 starting stacks and not allow rebuys (i.e., a freezout) if 50 joined. For the values T25/T100/T500/T1000/T5000 the cheapest but still playable starting stack is 8/8/2/3/1, but 8/8/2/8/0 or even 8/8/4/7/0 would be better.

Multiply with 50 and you have your required number of chips for each alternative. The tournament will end around level 10k/20k (with 500k in play) at which point all but the T5000 chips will have been removed, so you need 100 of the T5000 chips for color-ups. A few T25000 chips or plaques would be kewl, though!

Annnd don’t know the velocity of an unladen swallow lol

Sounds like you've missed an iconic movie!

I like that structure.. what does the ‘T’ stand for? I’ve seen people put T25 or T-whatever?

T is for tournament. Since the chips in a tournament don't have a cash value (they are more like points) we write T25 instead of $25 when talking about the chip with a value of 25 tournament "points".

 

[Mr Winberg]

BTW, welcome to the forum!

 

[shorticus]

Yeah, that too!!!

 

[Organista1]

50! That's quite tournament, I like it! I would use T10000 starting stacks and not allow rebuys (i.e., a freezout) if 50 joined. For the values T25/T100/T500/T1000/T5000 the cheapest but still playable starting stack is 8/8/2/3/1, but 8/8/2/8/0 or even 8/8/4/7/0 would be better.

Multiply with 50 and you have your required number of chips for each alternative. The tournament will end around level 10k/20k (with 500k in play) at which point all but the T5000 chips will have been removed, so you need 100 of the T5000 chips for color-ups. A few T25000 chips or plaques would be kewl, though!



Sounds like you've missed an iconic movie!


T is for tournament. Since the chips in a tournament don't have a cash value (they are more like points) we write T25 instead of $25 when talking about the chip with a value of 25 tournament "points".

Thank you!!

 

[JustinInMN]

I want a chip set to support a min of 10 players max of 50 players

Your chip set just got much bigger. But for standard T10K using T25/100/500/1000/5000/25000 this is the bare minimum.

Starting stacks (1350):

8/8/4/7

(I do favor at least four T500s per staring stack instead of two)

X 50 stacks is 400/400/200/350

Color ups (50 chips):
Now normally, I would advocate for extra T1000 to handle the first two color ups, but since the field is so big, you may end up coloring up T500 and T1000 as well.

So the starting stacks have 3K of chips in T25/100/500, times 50 stacks is T150K, or

30*T5k chips needed.

I would use T25K to color up the T1K chips, 7*50 = T350k, divide by T25K is 14 more chips, let's round to 20.

Rebuys (100):

So this is the guessing part. I suggest two T5k chips for rebuys and having players make change at the table. This way you don't need an infinite number of small chips that will just be removed on color ups anyway.

So it's just a matter of figuring out the "rebuy rate" which is an estimate based on how the game plays. 100% rebuy means you need 50*2 chips or 100 T5000.

So it looks like we can do this with 1500 chips.

There are probably ways to massage the higher denominations to meet quantity requirements. But I think 1500 is your number for accommodating 50 players.

 

[JustinInMN]

Just to make this point.

Your chip set just got much bigger. But for standard T10K using

You credibly can host 10 players with 300 chips.

Starting stacks (270):

8/8/4/7

Color ups (10):

1*T1K*10 players

Add on (20):

2*T5k*10 players (100% rebuy rate)

Aggregate
80/80/40/80/20 300

Now I consider 8/8/4/7 the bare minimum for T10k stacks. Others like deeper 12/12/5/6 or even more low chips. You can do all the calculations I have demonstrated with any stack size.

It's always

1) Starting stack * max players
2) color ups. (Use high denomination chips and estimate how many low denoms would be removed)
3) Rebuy/add on chips, consider your structure and expected rebuy rates.

Good luck.

 

[Mr Winberg]

(I do favor at least four T500s per staring stack instead of two)

Yeah, me to, I was just giving the minimum.

@Organista1, I read in the other thread that you are eyeballing the Dia de Los Muertos chips. @JustinInMN did the math and came up with
T25: 400
T100: 400
T500: 200
T1000: 350
T5000: 30
T25000: 14 (rounded to 20, but originally 14)
(I wrote 100 T5k, but the 14 T25k replace the 70 T5k)

The muerte chips use plaques for the T25k which are pricey, so it would actually be cheaper to use more T5k. However, plaques are super cool, so I would find some middle ground. IDK, but perhaps 8 of the 25k plaques and 60 T5k.

Also. Since these are customizable, make sure you pick the plaque that you like the best. Personally, I would order the poker playing skeletons as the T25k, but that's just me.

Another alternative is to use one of the chip colors as the T25k, but then you don't get plaques...

Rebuys (100):

So this is the guessing part.

If you will allow rebuys for your 50 player tournaments (I wouldn't, because I would be playing as well as hosting and wouldn't want to be bothered by all the eliminated denenerates) another alternative is to buy the minimum for freezouts as explained above, but when hosting a 50 player rebuy event you slice everything in half:
Starting stacks: T5000
Blinds:
25/50
25/75 (yes, this is perfectly fine)
50/100
75/150
etc....
If you want to start with 200 BBs you can even throw in a 25/25 level to start with.

Then you will have enough chips for rebuys without buying more chips! Everyone wins! (except ABC Gifts and Awards...)