Sickest WSOP final table bubble...

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#3
Yeah pretty gross for the two KK hands.

I dunno, might have been able to find a fold in Labat's (sp?) position, but maybe not. Certainly if he would have put in the 3b facing a 4b/5b shove it would have been easier to find the fold.
 

Klobberer

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#4
At my home game, when we play Omaha, the house rule is...if you are dealt quads, you have the option of revealing your hand and scooping the blinds. Kinda tough to improve...only happened once.
 

WedgeRock

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#5
At my home game, when we play Omaha, the house rule is...if you are dealt quads, you have the option of revealing your hand and scooping the blinds. Kinda tough to improve...only happened once.
I played in a $1/$1 NLO game where pocket quads beat everything else... The only caveat is that you couldn't raise... Only call.

Never hit while I played. I like your variation better.
 
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#7
A 3 way Allin on the WSOP final table bubble should NEVER EVER happen. Especially after Manion reshoved with about 10 SEC of thought, Kabat completely lost his mind. He didn't even tank, it took him about 30sec to put his chips in. Terrible.
 
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#8
Last weekend I was dealt quads twice in big o and a full house of Kings over Jack's once... Wish we would have been playing dramaha
 

WedgeRock

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#9
A 3 way Allin on the WSOP final table bubble should NEVER EVER happen. Especially after Manion reshoved with about 10 SEC of thought, Kabat completely lost his mind. He didn't even tank, it took him about 30sec to put his chips in. Terrible.
He obviously thought about it while action wasn't on him and decided this was the hill he was willing to die on...
 

WedgeRock

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#10

I usually like what Polk has to say, even if he's a little goofy on it... But his point is that guys will mix up their ranges and may jam wider than AA and KK and Labat's call wasn't horrible. While true, would two guys be jamming with less than AA or KK?

I get the point about trying to win the main, and I get that this is a much harder situation in the moment. But it seems like the arguments supporting a call of a jam-jam in front of you on the final table bubble of the main are disingenuous.
 
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#11
Let's say for example, the short stack wakes up with AK suited. He pushes.

Second guy who has a little bigger stack has QQ and wants to try to isolate the all-in so he shoves over the top.

Now what does KK do?
 

upNdown

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#12
Did Polk just imply that Cada was lucky? The first time around, sure. This year, STFU. Cada was pretty much short-stacked for a week. The fact that he is where he right now is a total credit to his play and should never be dismissed as luck.
 

upNdown

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#13
Way to go Doug, complimenting Phil on both the tournament win, and the record extending 15th bracelet.
Oh that's right, you didn't. You downplayed the win as a "turbo," you called him lucky, and you dismissed his earlier bracelets because of smaller field sizes. Way to be classy, douche.
 
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#15
I mean, to final table the main even once in a lifetime is lucky with the field size these days. Cada definitely had to get lucky (or avoid being unlucky if that's the way we want to look at it) to win the many times he's been all in or bet a large portion of his stack and won. I'm not downplaying his skills at all that's just the way tournaments work.

Hell, I think Holz is probably one of the best players in the world right now, but if anyone says he hasn't gotten lucky and ran amazingly over the last couple of years I think they are delusional. Same goes for Bonomo this year.

I think Doug isn't that far off, the large field sizes are much harder to take down if not for variance alone. I also think his core audience knows you simply have to run well to win tournaments, even though skill will prevail over the long run.
 

WedgeRock

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#16
Now what does KK do?
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Yeah, Zhu was short and could be shoving wider. I'm sure these things went through Labat's head. I would have made up my mind (tho probably not acted as soon as it was on me) beforeb Manion re-shoved.

But Manion raised. After Labat called, Zhu re-raised. Then Manion re-raised. To me, I don't think Zhu re-raised too wide, given that Manion already raised (and was called). He has to assume two (at least one) pretty premium hands. So Zhu is not pushing too wide. I don't think Zhu pushes with AK there. Maybe QQ.

Now Manion 4 bets?! Sure, Manion's bet could have been an isolation bet, to get the Labat's big stack out so that he's not at risk. But when I am Labat, I can't give both of them credit for shoving wide, can I? If Zhu had to give Manion/Labat credit for at least one good hand between them, doesn't that hold true (ever more so) when action gets back to Labat?!

Labat only had $1.5M in the pot. Zhu made it 24.7M and then Manion made it 43M. I think Labat can let 1.5M go, even if he had the best hand. On the FT bubble of the main, with the pay jump, I'm playing this pretty tightly (as I sit here in front if my keyboard with no TV cameras on me). It's just not worth the risk.

I remember the old adage that a 4-bet is always aces or kings. If that holds true, I am chopping or way behind. I don't like either of those options.

I'm not saying I'm good enough to fold kings in that spot. I'm not even good enough to fold them in a 25¢/50¢ game with a $50 pot. But Polk's assessment that calling was the right move if you're trying to win the main? I just think that's a little too far.
 
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upNdown

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#17
I think Labat can let 1.5M go, even if he had the best hand. On the FT bubble of the main, with the pay jump, I'm playing this pretty tightly (as I sit here in front if my keyboard with no TV cameras on me). It's just not worth the risk.
I remember the old adage that a 4-bet is always aces or kings. If that holds true, I am chopping or way behind. I don't like either of those options.
I'm not saying I'm good enough to fold kings in that spot. I'm not even good enough to fold them in a 25¢/50¢ game with a $50 pot. But Polk's assessment that calling was the right move if you're trying to win the main? I just think that's a little too far.
Yes Yes Yes. I'm not that good, but if I was Labat, I could have laid down those kings with about 20 second's thought.
Polk makes some useful points, but I think he's just sort of being a contrarian or devil's advocate here - he's taking the other position and arguing it as best as he can. I don't believe he would have called off the majority of his stack, in Labat's position.
 
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#18
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Yeah, Zhu was short and could be shoving wider. I'm sure these things went through _'s head. I would have made up my mind (tho probably not acted as soon as it was on me) beforeb Manion re-shoved.

But Manion raised. After Labat called, Zhu re-raised. Then Manion re-raised. To me, I don't think Zhu re-raised too wide, given that Manion already raised (and was called). He has to assume two (at least one) pretty premium hands. So Zhu is not pushing too wide. I don't think Zhu pushes with AK there. Maybe QQ. Now Manion 4 bets?! Sure, Manion's bet could have been an isolation bet, to get the Labat's bug stack out so that he's not at risk. But when I am Labat, I can't give both of them credit for shoving wide, can I? Labat only had $1.5M in the pot. Zhu made it 24.7M and then Manion made it 43M. I think Labat can let 1.5M go, even if he had the best hand. On the FT bubble of the main, with the pay jump, I'm playing this pretty tightly (as I sit here in front if my keyboard with no TV cameras on me). It's just not worth the risk.

I remember the old adage that a 4-bet is always aces or kings. If that holds true, I am chopping or way behind. I don't like either of those options.

I'm not saying I'm good enough to fold kings in that spot. I'm not even good enough to fold them in a 25¢/50¢ game with a $50 pot. But Polk's assessment that calling was the right move if you're trying to win the main? I just think that's a little too far.
I appreciate your line of thinking, but are you playing to win the Main Event or are you playing just to ladder up a couple spots.

Also, thanks for including the names, I'm at work so anything other than this site that is poker related is blocked!

I will say I've seen a lot of 4 bets this tournament that did not hold AA or KK, so who knows. I would have a very hard time laying down KK in that spot. You take down that pot, you have suddenly vaulted to the top of the leaderboard.
 

WedgeRock

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#19
You take down that pot, you have suddenly vaulted to the top of the leaderboard.
I'm sure Labat was thinking that.

I agree that you are playing to win the main, but you gotta avoid landmines to do that. This had to have alarm bells going off for Labat. And while the reward was great, so was the risk.

It's like cheating in an underground card game in New York. If you get listed as a mechanic, then not only are you gonna get the shit kicked out of you, you're not gonna get a fuckin' game anywhere in New York. It's stupid. It's just bad business.

Think about the big picture.
 

upNdown

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#21
I appreciate your line of thinking, but are you playing to win the Main Event or are you playing just to ladder up a couple spots.
I don't think they're mutually exclusive here. It's not like Labat would have been hanging on in hopes of finishing 8th instead of 10th if he folded. He could have folded away 1.5 million and still been in second or third place with over 80 big blinds.
 

MrWoody45

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#22
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Yeah, Zhu was short and could be shoving wider. I'm sure these things went through Labat's head. I would have made up my mind (tho probably not acted as soon as it was on me) beforeb Manion re-shoved.

But Manion raised. After Labat called, Zhu re-raised. Then Manion re-raised. To me, I don't think Zhu re-raised too wide, given that Manion already raised (and was called). He has to assume two (at least one) pretty premium hands. So Zhu is not pushing too wide. I don't think Zhu pushes with AK there. Maybe QQ.

Now Manion 4 bets?! Sure, Manion's bet could have been an isolation bet, to get the Labat's big stack out so that he's not at risk. But when I am Labat, I can't give both of them credit for shoving wide, can I? If Zhu had to give Manion/Labat credit for at least one good hand between them, doesn't that hold true (ever more so) when action gets back to Labat?!

Labat only had $1.5M in the pot. Zhu made it 24.7M and then Manion made it 43M. I think Labat can let 1.5M go, even if he had the best hand. On the FT bubble of the main, with the pay jump, I'm playing this pretty tightly (as I sit here in front if my keyboard with no TV cameras on me). It's just not worth the risk.

I remember the old adage that a 4-bet is always aces or kings. If that holds true, I am chopping or way behind. I don't like either of those options.

I'm not saying I'm good enough to fold kings in that spot. I'm not even good enough to fold them in a 25¢/50¢ game with a $50 pot. But Polk's assessment that calling was the right move if you're trying to win the main? I just think that's a little too far.
I know if I was in main.......id have to shove with KK.....but i apply same theiory to my .25 .50 cash game as well...what do i know
 

WedgeRock

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#23
I don't think they're mutually exclusive here. It's not like Labat would have been hanging on in hopes of finishing 8th instead of 10th if he folded. He could have folded away 1.5 million and still been in second or third place with over 80 big blinds.
Where did Labat end up finishing? And how much would an extra 41.5M helped?

And while you ponder that, consider how laying KK down in that position helps his image when the rest of the table sees it in 30 minutes. Does he get labeled as a nit that can be pushed off premium hands, or a genius with the ability to read souls?
 
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