Tourney Setting up a home game bounty tournament

kkcc98

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Hello peeps, I've been thinking this over for the past few weeks for a structure that fits a bounty tourney.
I'm setting the buy in at 30 (20 to prize pool and 10 to bounty). I have 2 sets of chips for both cash and tournament so along with the starting stack I will give them TWO $5 chips. Apparently, my friend told me that if you knock someone out, you pocket half of their bounty (one $5 chip), and add their other $5 to your own bounty. But what happens when you knock out another person with a $15 bounty? Would that require breaking up of their cash chips using $1s?

So my questions are:
1. Is this bounty concept valid or is it making sense?
2. What should the starting stack and blinds structure be for a tourney lasting 3-4 hours? (I wouldn't mind if people kept rebuying, in fact I would want to implicitly encourage it since I have a splurgy group of friends) My current blind structure for a normal tourney is pretty much a very standard one, based off of Christopher M's video on youtube.
3. Does anyone have thoughts about the 20:10 prize pool to bounty split ratio? Would there be any upside to have a 50/50 split or otherwise?
 

philhut

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There are varied options I have used

1- The player with the most bounty buttons wins the bounty pool, if there is a tie it can be decided by stack size low/high or by a coin flip, dice roll or card flip, fight's to the death, or whatever method of choosing the winner of a tie.
2- each bounty chip is assigned a cash value, you lose your bounty chip if kicked out of the game but retain all bounty chips you have won by eliminating other players. The chips won from other players can be exchanged for currency. In your example each bounty chip could be $10 in value, at the end of the game/bounty rounds all players with bounty chips can cash them for $10.

I like option 2 the most. I don't really see the point in pocketing $5, may as well just carry it all over to the cash table. If you don't have $10 chips or a non-denom chip then two $5's could work except as a bounty you get two coins instead of 1.....
 

Mr Winberg

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Is this bounty concept valid or is it making sense?
It's a progressive bounty structure, that makes you more valuable to knock out if you have knocked others out. "Standard" bounty tourneys just means you win a set amount per knockout, in your scenario it would mean you always got $10 per knockout.

But what happens when you knock out another person with a $15 bounty?
In a progressive bounty structure you need to decide if you round up or down in these cases. If you round up so you pocket 10$, it's a bit less progressive. Round down and it's more progressive.

Does anyone have thoughts about the 20:10 prize pool to bounty split ratio? Would there be any upside to have a 50/50 split or otherwise?
It's a bit high. I usually have 20-25% of the price pool being bounties. The higher percentage, the more the strategy changes.
 

Silver_Fiend

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There are varied options I have used

1- The player with the most bounty buttons wins the bounty pool, if there is a tie it can be decided by stack size low/high or by a coin flip, dice roll or card flip, fight's to the death, or whatever method of choosing the winner of a tie.
2- each bounty chip is assigned a cash value, you lose your bounty chip if kicked out of the game but retain all bounty chips you have won by eliminating other players. The chips won from other players can be exchanged for currency. In your example each bounty chip could be $10 in value, at the end of the game/bounty rounds all players with bounty chips can cash them for $10.

I like option 2 the most. I don't really see the point in pocketing $5, may as well just carry it all over to the cash table. If you don't have $10 chips or a non-denom chip then two $5's could work except as a bounty you get two coins instead of 1.....
I like the #2 option also. Easy and simple.
 

Mr Winberg

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What should the starting stack and blinds structure be for a tourney lasting 3-4 hours? (I wouldn't mind if people kept rebuying, in fact I would want to implicitly encourage it since I have a splurgy group of friends) My current blind structure for a normal tourney is pretty much a very standard one, based off of Christopher M's video on youtube.

I focused on the progressive vs standard bounty system so I forgot about this question.

A tournament usually doesn't survive past the level where the big blind is roughly 5% of the total chips (or in other words: when there are about 20 BBs in play, hence the name "The 20 BB rule".)

So the information we need to help you with your structure is: What will the total chip value be?

And to answer that, we need to know how many players you expect, how many rebuys you expect, how many addons, the size of the rebuys and addons, and your lowest chip denom.

Example from my rebuy tourneys:
10k stacks, lowest chip is 25, rebuys and addons worth 10k, 20 players, about 20% rebuy (4 players), usually all but perhaps two add on.
That's (20+4+18)×10000=420000
So the tourney starts at 25/50 and should end around 10000/20000. Now I just need a structure that takes me there in the desired timeframe. Don't forget to include breaks!
 

kkcc98

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There are varied options I have used

1- The player with the most bounty buttons wins the bounty pool, if there is a tie it can be decided by stack size low/high or by a coin flip, dice roll or card flip, fight's to the death, or whatever method of choosing the winner of a tie.
2- each bounty chip is assigned a cash value, you lose your bounty chip if kicked out of the game but retain all bounty chips you have won by eliminating other players. The chips won from other players can be exchanged for currency. In your example each bounty chip could be $10 in value, at the end of the game/bounty rounds all players with bounty chips can cash them for $10.

I like option 2 the most. I don't really see the point in pocketing $5, may as well just carry it all over to the cash table. If you don't have $10 chips or a non-denom chip then two $5's could work except as a bounty you get two coins instead of 1.....
Cheers, really liking the 2 method, will give it go next time.

I focused on the progressive vs standard bounty system so I forgot about this question.

A tournament usually doesn't survive past the level where the big blind is roughly 5% of the total chips (or in other words: when there are about 20 BBs in play, hence the name "The 20 BB rule".)

So the information we need to help you with your structure is: What will the total chip value be?

And to answer that, we need to know how many players you expect, how many rebuys you expect, how many addons, the size of the rebuys and addons, and your lowest chip denom.

Example from my rebuy tourneys:
10k stacks, lowest chip is 25, rebuys and addons worth 10k, 20 players, about 20% rebuy (4 players), usually all but perhaps two add on.
That's (20+4+18)×10000=420000
So the tourney starts at 25/50 and should end around 10000/20000. Now I just need a structure that takes me there in the desired timeframe. Don't forget to include breaks!
Thanks for this, never heard of this 'total chip value'.
I have a similar structure for my regular tourneys as well.
10k starting, 25/100/500/1000/5000 chips, 1 rebuy/addon allowed for 10k for each person.
I guess my question is more regarding level lengths, my typical structure has 20 mins for the first 5 levels, break & chip up, 15 mins for the next 5, break and then 10 mins for the remaining levels.
So I'm wondering if a bounty tournament that encourages rebuys will need to adjust this. My basic thinking is just 1. shorter starting stacks (maybe 8k) 2. shorter blinds levels.
 

Mr Winberg

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1 rebuy/addon allowed for 10k for each person.
So those who don't rebuy are allowed an add-on? When I've done that, pretty much everyone who doesn't rebuy will add-on, so regardless of how many rebuy the chip count is always 2×startingstack×players (minus the odd player who doesn't addon for whatever reason).

Is that not the case for your crew? Because if it is, then the bounty structure won't change the chip count, it'll just mean that more players might rebuy instead of adding on due to the added agression.

If you meant max 1 rebuy + optional addon, then yes, bounties should create more rebuys, especially if they are of such a high percentage of the price pool as you're suggesting. But it won't change the tourney length that much.

Example: If you're 10 players, 3 rebuy and 8 add on, then that's 210000 in play. The 20BB rule says it will end before the 6000/12000 level. Now if 5 rebuy due to added agression and 8 still add on, then that's 230000 in play and the 20BB rule still says it will end before the 6000/12000 level.

Adding more to the total chip count doesn't increase the tourney length as much as some people might think. If you double the stacks, a tourney with a standard structure where the BB doubles every two levels will just run for 2 levels longer (on average).
 

kkcc98

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So those who don't rebuy are allowed an add-on? When I've done that, pretty much everyone who doesn't rebuy will add-on, so regardless of how many rebuy the chip count is always 2×startingstack×players (minus the odd player who doesn't addon for whatever reason).

Is that not the case for your crew? Because if it is, then the bounty structure won't change the chip count, it'll just mean that more players might rebuy instead of adding on due to the added agression.

If you meant max 1 rebuy + optional addon, then yes, bounties should create more rebuys, especially if they are of such a high percentage of the price pool as you're suggesting. But it won't change the tourney length that much.

Example: If you're 10 players, 3 rebuy and 8 add on, then that's 210000 in play. The 20BB rule says it will end before the 6000/12000 level. Now if 5 rebuy due to added agression and 8 still add on, then that's 230000 in play and the 20BB rule still says it will end before the 6000/12000 level.

Adding more to the total chip count doesn't increase the tourney length as much as some people might think. If you double the stacks, a tourney with a standard structure where the BB doubles every two levels will just run for 2 levels longer (on average).
Thanks for typing this out, I perhaps feel a little out of my depth, as my group is mainly cash game players, and if they had to choose, they would rather spend the buyins on the tourney on a cash game. Not to say they're opposed to tournaments, but I am the one mainly pushing the tourney idea forward since I have a tourney chip set I bought a while back that I would like to get used. So apologies if I'm not following what you're saying fully.

The last time I hosted a normal tourney, I had a structure of:
20 buy-in, same for rebuys & add-ons. 15k starting.
Level structure:
25/50 (20 min levels)
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Break + chip up
200/400 (15 min levels)
300/600
400/800
500/1000
800/1600
Break + chip up
1000/2000 (10 min levels)
and so on, don't think we made it past 3k/6k.

Now to my surprise at the time, no one rebought or added on (disappointing!). I think the issue was that the at the cut off point for last rebuys/addons was at the 2nd break, and a new rebuy stack would give 7.5 BBs at the next commencing level (stupid mistake!). Obviously this still relates to my initial question of how to increase rebuys because I love a bloated prize pool. I would like if the rebuys were rolling in on or before the first break+chip up. So I'm thinking of lowering the starting stack by approx half to 8k, and keep the same structure. This gives a rebuy stack at the break 20 BBs to play with at the resumed level. But I'm not sure if this gives much incentive to go in as a shorty...

My thinking is a bit muddled up right now and I don't want to mess up the structure again. So I'm expecting 9 players, best case scenario 3/4 rebuy (lol). (9+4)x8000=104000.
 

philhut

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Each of these chip stacks has 5000 in value.... the way the game is played depending on skill level of players varies by a good degree sometimes simply depending on how the starting stack is allocated. If I am playing with beginners and am hoping for an opportunity to limp into a bunch of pots then the big stack on the right would be my choice lol.....however for chip efficiency and experienced players the stacks on the most left and 2nd from left are more optimal.
I follow a similar structure to what you proposed except I got from 100/200 to 200/400 rather than 150/300 ( I eliminated this level entirely)
I keep blinds at 20mins across the game and at the option of the players (by mutual agreement) to reduce to 10-15mins when down to 4 or less players.

If starting with 15000 in chip value you are unlikely to have much in the way of rebuys and actually a rather slow methodical tournament. I'd recommend if you want a Rebuy tourney that you reduce your initial buy in chip stack. I agree that reducing stack size and time of play increases the lottery style percentage of the game but also makes the game more lively and fun in a more time oriented fashion for non-poker obscessed friends as well. I have played with 1500-3000 starting stacks, 5k's,8ks, 10ks, and 20ks etc..... My favourite seems to be the 5k tourney's either sit and go or with rebuys and add on's. This is the figure more of my sets are made for as starting stacks for multiple tables. If you want lots of Rebuys and the biggest prize pool I suggest 3000 in chip value with unlimited rebuys and an add-on at the first break..... In one house game I'd play in often several tables would see about 30-50% of players rebuying and almost every player continuing after the first break would add on as well. Personally I find 5k more balanced.

$XXX buy-in, same for rebuys & add-ons. 5k starting. (*optional 4k or 5k start with 500-1000 buy in bonus with $10 food charity or 2 items of food for same.
Level structure:
25/50 (20-30 min levels) (unlimited rebuys till break)
50/100
75/150 (***option 30min blinds first 3 levels then colour up/break/add-on @ prior to 100/200 blinds)
100/200
Break + chip up+add-on+end of rebuys (1.25hrs)
200/400 (20 min levels)
300/600
400/800
500/1000
800/1600
Break + chip up (*****pay any bounties here, this is often when a cash game may start with eliminated players)
1000/2000 (20 min levels*)
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000


6BUHzvC.jpg
 
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Dodger

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If you have never run a bounty tourney before, I’d keep that part super simple. Each player is worth $10. You knock someone out, you win that $10 bounty. It’s yours to keep regardless of what happens after. Someone knocks you out, they earn your $10 bounty.

Example scenario: You knock out 3 players over the course of the night. Later, you are knocked out by someone who only collects your bounty on the night. You pocket $30 for your 3 collected bounties. The person who knocked you out collects $10.

In this setup, players can’t lose bounties they’ve earned. I’d hold off on setting up progressive bounties until you and your players get comfortable with this standard setup first.

Good luck and have fun! Bounties definitely add a different element to the game.
 

philhut

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If you have never run a bounty tourney before, I’d keep that part super simple. Each player is worth $10. You knock someone out, you win that $10 bounty. It’s yours to keep regardless of what happens after. Someone knocks you out, they earn your $10 bounty.

Example scenario: You knock out 3 players over the course of the night. Later, you are knocked out by someone who only collects your bounty on the night. You pocket $30 for your 3 collected bounties. The person who knocked you out collects $10.

In this setup, players can’t lose bounties they’ve earned. I’d hold off on setting up progressive bounties until you and your players get comfortable with this standard setup first.

Good luck and have fun! Bounties definitely add a different element to the game.

Exactly.... when bounties won can be lost it makes a player who eliminated others a "Target" for the rest of the game..... I have actually seen players go mostly all-in less a few chips so they don't become embroiled in a bounty war. Kind of ruined the game concept for me. If I ever use bounties I always follow as you prescribed Dodger.
 

kkcc98

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Each of these chip stacks has 5000 in value.... the way the game is played depending on skill level of players varies by a good degree sometimes simply depending on how the starting stack is allocated. If I am playing with beginners and am hoping for an opportunity to limp into a bunch of pots then the big stack on the right would be my choice lol.....however for chip efficiency and experienced players the stacks on the most left and 2nd from left are more optimal.
I follow a similar structure to what you proposed except I got from 100/200 to 200/400 rather than 150/300 ( I eliminated this level entirely)
I keep blinds at 20mins across the game and at the option of the players (by mutual agreement) to reduce to 10-15mins when down to 4 or less players.

If starting with 15000 in chip value you are unlikely to have much in the way of rebuys and actually a rather slow methodical tournament. I'd recommend if you want a Rebuy tourney that you reduce your initial buy in chip stack. I agree that reducing stack size and time of play increases the lottery style percentage of the game but also makes the game more lively and fun in a more time oriented fashion for non-poker obscessed friends as well. I have played with 1500-3000 starting stacks, 5k's,8ks, 10ks, and 20ks etc..... My favourite seems to be the 5k tourney's either sit and go or with rebuys and add on's. This is the figure more of my sets are made for as starting stacks for multiple tables. If you want lots of Rebuys and the biggest prize pool I suggest 3000 in chip value with unlimited rebuys and an add-on at the first break..... In one house game I'd play in often several tables would see about 30-50% of players rebuying and almost every player continuing after the first break would add on as well. Personally I find 5k more balanced.

$XXX buy-in, same for rebuys & add-ons. 5k starting. (*optional 4k or 5k start with 500-1000 buy in bonus with $10 food charity or 2 items of food for same.
Level structure:
25/50 (20-30 min levels) (unlimited rebuys till break)
50/100
75/150 (***option 30min blinds first 3 levels then colour up/break/add-on @ prior to 100/200 blinds)
100/200
Break + chip up+add-on+end of rebuys (1.25hrs)
200/400 (20 min levels)
300/600
400/800
500/1000
800/1600
Break + chip up (*****pay any bounties here, this is often when a cash game may start with eliminated players)
1000/2000 (20 min levels*)
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000


6BUHzvC.jpg
Love this. I was worried about 5k being too short of a stack, but if I lower the buy in and follow a structure similar to yours I could see it being quite fast paced, fun and spewy. 3 best combos.

One thing I'm not sure about is the buy in. My cash games are always .25/.25, with almost everyone buying in for 50. 40 as a tourney buy in might be too much, as they might expect a rebuy, and leave a few buy ins for the cash game after. My idea is to have a 20 (10 prize pool 10 bounty), so people might be inclined to fire multiple bullets in the tourney and be around a buy in for a cash game. But I feel this might be a bit too low, perhaps a 30 buy in (20pp, 10 bounty) might be better? I guess in the end it's what my group is comfortable slinging around, but it would be nice to hear some of what you guys set as a buy in.
 

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Love this. I was worried about 5k being too short of a stack, but if I lower the buy in and follow a structure similar to yours I could see it being quite fast paced, fun and spewy. 3 best combos.

One thing I'm not sure about is the buy in. My cash games are always .25/.25, with almost everyone buying in for 50. 40 as a tourney buy in might be too much, as they might expect a rebuy, and leave a few buy ins for the cash game after. My idea is to have a 20 (10 prize pool 10 bounty), so people might be inclined to fire multiple bullets in the tourney and be around a buy in for a cash game. But I feel this might be a bit too low, perhaps a 30 buy in (20pp, 10 bounty) might be better? I guess in the end it's what my group is comfortable slinging around, but it would be nice to hear some of what you guys set as a buy in.

It’s definitely group dependent. If you want guys sticking around for a cash game after, I think the $25-30 is the right range. We’ve done $25 ($20 pp + $5 bounty) and $30 ($20 + $10). Our guys didn’t mind either, but the slightly higher bounty will encourage a bit more aggressive play as stacks get shorter.
 
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