Running down time to prevent a rebuy (online) - bad or good?

Is it scummy or strategic to rundown time to prevent a rebuy?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 37.5%
  • No

    Votes: 10 62.5%

  • Total voters
    16

grantc54

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I play in a lot of online tournaments on P* and Poker Mavens where on some games a certain number of rebuys and an addon is included in the buyin. I find a lot of people don't properly strategize to maximize their use of the rebuys, and think this can be taken advantage of.

My question is - Is it bad/scummy to purposefully rundown time near the end of the rebuy period in order to reduce the number of hands (or preventing there from being another hand) short stacks have to bust/rebuy before the time is up?

It is very tempting, especially with strong players who I'd prefer going into the Addon with T2K chips vs T10K. Online there isn't a "last hand to rebuy", once the time is up, rebuys are done when the current hand is done.

I'm really on the fence with this and thought I would run it by others to see if I am missing anything.

Thanks,
Grant
 

ekricket

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I play in a lot of online tournaments on P* and Poker Mavens where on some games a certain number of rebuys and an addon is included in the buyin. I find a lot of people don't properly strategize to maximize their use of the rebuys, and think this can be taken advantage of.

My question is - Is it bad/scummy to purposefully rundown time near the end of the rebuy period in order to reduce the number of hands (or preventing there from being another hand) short stacks have to bust/rebuy before the time is up?

It is very tempting, especially with strong players who I'd prefer going into the Addon with T2K chips vs T10K. Online there isn't a "last hand to rebuy", once the time is up, rebuys are done when the current hand is done.

I'm really on the fence with this and thought I would run it by others to see if I am missing anything.

Thanks,
Grant
I think it’s right up there with tanking so the blinds go up on a short stack. Sure you can do it. You can also just reach over and flip an opponents cards over. Or you can hold your cards up high enough for your neighbor to see them and then his hand can be declared dead for peeking. (Been at the table when this happened)
There are lots of questionable behaviors, I think it boils down to what kind of person do you want to be, not what is “allowed”.
 

Kain8

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If there were 30 seconds left in the level and a strong player has a short stack, then it's within your rights and the rules to do this. The way to offset this altogether though is allow a final rebuy period after the level has elapsed in addition to the add-on purchase.

I'm reminded of a Jeopardy champion, Alex Jacob, who used this strategy on his daily double wagering to time his opponents out from extra clues. Any instance that you can monopolize a limited resource (time) in a game that affects your opponents negatively is beneficial to yourself.
 

ekricket

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If there were 30 seconds left in the level and a strong player has a short stack, then it's within your rights and the rules to do this. The way to offset this altogether though is allow a final rebuy period after the level has elapsed in addition to the add-on purchase.

I'm reminded of a Jeopardy champion, Alex Jacob, who used this strategy on his daily double wagering to time his opponents out from extra clues. Any instance that you can monopolize a limited resource (time) in a game that affects your opponents negatively is beneficial to yourself.
So “who’s it on” now becomes a strategy.
 

Kain8

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So “who’s it on” now becomes a strategy.

I'm only speaking from an online perspective. If this were live and a player who hasn't taken long in their preflop decisions and THEN tanks on the final hand before the rebuy period ends, they're likely to get throat punched.

Again though, allowing a final rebuy chance to short stacks after the level has elapsed is the cure-all to eliminate this situation entirely.
 

grantc54

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I'm only speaking from an online perspective. If this were live and a player who hasn't taken long in their preflop decisions and THEN tanks on the final hand before the rebuy period ends, they're likely to get throat punched.

Again though, allowing a final rebuy chance to short stacks after the level has elapsed is the cure-all to eliminate this situation entirely.

I think this is a very valid point. In a live game everyone is aware when Rebuys are ending and there is usually an announcement when the last hand comes up. Online if you aren't watching the clock you can easily miss your chance to Rebuy.
 

BGinGA

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I see merits to both arguments. Certainly stategic. Arguably scummy at first glance, but is it really? Everybody has access to the same time information, and everybody has the ability to tailor their actions towards their own best interests. That includes making sure you don't run out of time before re-buys end, if that's your goal.

Time management is certainly a strategy. Many players openly attempt to speed up play to avoid getting hit with an upcoming blind increase (and thus transferring it to another player), for example.

I don't see much -- if any -- difference between that, and intentionally speeding up or slowing down play to alter who the blinds will hit (aka shortstacks), or doing so to affect who gets a chance to play an extra hand (and theoretically bust-out/re-buy) before time expires.

It all seems pretty much the same to me.

Using a time clock, time bank, and/or time chips helps to minimize the amount of time that can be manipulated. And adding a stack-surrender rule totally negates the stall strategy completely (but not the other time management strategies mentioned earlier). But if there is a 'must bust-out to re-buy' rule in effect, you can't fix that after time runs out and the player still has chips.
 

Legend5555

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It's bad all around, but it's going to happen. Even as a short stack, it's more beneficial for you to see more hands than less hands. The problem is that as soon as one short stack starts doing it around a bubble or pay jump, then every short stack should start doing it.
 

legonick

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[...] You can also just reach over and flip an opponents cards over. Or you can hold your cards up high enough for your neighbor to see them and then his hand can be declared dead for peeking. (Been at the table when this happened)
There are lots of questionable behaviors, I think it boils down to what kind of person do you want to be, not what is “allowed”.

Pretty sure you can't do that without serious consequences, like tournament ejection or worse. Same with the allowing others to peek...if that's caught or obvious, I'd expect and hope for serious consequences. But timing stuff out, especially in an online setting, is hard to argue against.

Is there an "online - strategic/in-person - scummy" option?
 

raynmanas

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Shoot, just realized I did a bad job at labelling the poll.

Yes = scummy
No = strategic

yeah you did lol.

it's strategic - just like people who use all of their time bank for every hand near the bubble. it's infuriating, but it's a legitimate strategy.
 

legonick

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yeah you did lol.

it's strategic - just like people who use all of their time bank for every hand near the bubble. it's infuriating, but it's a legitimate strategy.

Is that online or in-person?

Where it gets dicey is in-person and people AREN'T using up some resource to do it, but just, well...wasting everyone's time. I feel like, taken to it's extreme, it'd turn into everyone immediately calling the clock on everyone else, and thereby would be bad for the game, and a TD's nightmare.
 

grantc54

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I just noticed even among friends online poker is a lot more cut throat. At the same time there seems to be a lot more ambivalence towards things like this.

I had a good friend speed raise hands when I had accidentally disconnected for a minute when switching devices when we were heads up. I didnt think that was nice.

Live I wouldn't dare purposely tank.

Another time I have let time rundown is when during a free rebuy/addon event where I had already used my rebuy but was minutes away from the addon. Less hands, less blinds, less chance of dunking off remaining chips to bust before getting a big influx of new chips.
 

legonick

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[...]
I had a good ex-friend speed raise hands when I had accidentally disconnected for a minute when switching devices when we were heads up. I didnt think that was nice.
[...]

FTFY. :D

No but, dang, that's pretty cut throat.
 

grantc54

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FTFY. :D

No but, dang, that's pretty cut throat.
I had some words with him. His excuse was that it was late and he wanted to just get the tournament done, lol. He thought maybe I fell asleep - I mean, he could have just texted. It was pretty disappointing to see so many hands had passed in such a short period of time.
 

Frogzilla

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It’s annoying to waste time, but it’s also a kindness to help the short stacks avoid spewing. So I’m mixed here. People seriously underestimate the value of a short stack. 5000 chips has more than 50% the value of 10000.

I don’t do it because I don’t want to waste time and I definitely don’t want to help my opponents
 

legonick

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I meant online, but people definitely stall the bubble in live tournaments as well. And obviously I am talking about large multi-table tournaments.

I feel like online it's more "acceptable" as there are probably automatic timers. Live play, that's pretty dirty, depending on how long players drag it out. Forcing clock calls with no legitimate decision is pretty lame. More often what I've witnessed on televised stuff is players with semi-legitimate decisions taking their time...coddling that gray zone, LOL.
 

scaredmoney

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When you get close to the bubble people do it all the time. People shout out someone's all in at different tables. People start to rubber neck and some slow their decision to call on purpose. Or when you're getting close to a dinner break maybe.

You're running out the clock before half time so the other team doesn't get the chance to score. Or you run the ball instead of passing when you have the lead.

I don't think it's too bad.
 

JustinInMN

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I mean I assume this is why most tournaments have the rebuy period end at a break and include the break time to permit the rebuy.
 
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