Cash Game Rules relating to folding/mucking at showdown (1 Viewer)

[Eloe2000]

Weekly very friendly cash game with mostly long time experienced players but we now have a couple very green but invested newbie regulars. I have recently had situations arise that have never happened before and I am struggling to identify the proper underlying ruling. All of the more experienced players always wait for winner to identify their winning hand and then verify the cards before folding. Two recent situations;

1. Heads up NLHE at river. Player A checks then Player B bets. Player A calls but doesn’t show cards and waits for show of Player B. Player B verbally says “straight” and turns over cards. Player A says “fold” and throws his cards down in front of him face down (not in the muck). Turns out Player B did NOT make his straight (not angling, just too much rum) and Player A had the better hand. Player A flips over his cards to show better hand.

2. Heads up NLHE at river. Player A checks then Player B bets. Player A calls but doesn’t show cards and waits for player B. Player B says “2 pair” and flips over cards. Player A then throws his cards in front of him face down not in the muck without verbalizing anything but in the action of a fold. As Player B goes to scoop the pot Player A realizes he had a better two pair since there was already a pair on the board. Player A flips his cards over showing a better hand.

How do you rule these situations and what are the underlying commonly accepted rules? (I have checked past threads and TDA rule etc and am not confident in what I am finding).

Thanks in advance.

 

[CraigT78]

I rule both the same way - the player who tables his hand wind pot, as both 'A' players folded. IDGAF if they had better hands, they did not table the hand prior to the fold action.

 

[DoubleEagle]

#1. Player A is allowed to retrieve his hand if clearly identifiable since he mucked based on incorrect statement by player B.

#2. Player A’s hand is dead.

 

[Eloe2000]

I rule both the same way - the player who tables his hand wind pot, as both 'A' players folded. IDGAF if they had better hands, they did not table the hand prior to the fold action.

Thanks for the response. This is the way all of us more experienced players feel and treat our cards which is why this has never come up in many years of playing. But I also know that in some rules cards are not “mucked” if retrievable. This is part of my confusion.

 

[Eloe2000]

#1. Player A is allowed to retrieve his hand if clearly identifiable since he mucked based on incorrect statement by player B.

#2. Player A’s hand is dead.

#1 but is this based off of a hard rule or a “gentleman’s rule”?

 

[CraigT78]

Thanks for the response. This is the way all of us more experienced players feel and treat our cards which is why this has never come up in many years of playing. But I also know that in some rules cards are not “mucked” if retrievable. This is part of my confusion.

Don't confuse 'mucked' vs 'folded'. It's not like the muck is some magical pile where cards go to die. If a player folds, they fold. Cards speak - if you choose not to show your cards, you can't grab them back up after realizing you had a better hand.

 

[justsomedude]

I rule both the same way - the player who tables his hand wind pot, as both 'A' players folded. IDGAF if they had better hands, they did not table the hand prior to the fold action.

I would rule the same, and I'm pretty firm about how tabled cards are treated. That being said, I've been at other games where tabled hands get ruled as "live" and "Player A" gets to scoop the pot.

Be prepared to deal with both rulings/outcomes when playing home games. Hosts/house rules vary.

 

[Frogzilla]

I guess I go against the grain here and would ruled both of these that player A wins as long as the cards are clearly retrievable and didn’t touch other cards.

 

[CraigT78]

I would rule the same, and I'm pretty firm about how tabled cards are treated. That being said, I've been at other games where tabled hands get ruled as "live" and "Player A" gets to scoop the pot.

Be prepared to deal with both rulings/outcomes. Hosts/house rules vary.

Agree - in scenario #1 - I could see ruling the other way, as player B folds to the verbal "Straight" of Player A - BUT - in my game, cards speak, and if you fold, you have no cards to speak.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

@BGinGA

 

[Eloe2000]

Don't confuse 'mucked' vs 'folded'. It's not like the muck is some magical pile where cards go to die. If a player folds, they fold. Cards speak - if you choose not to show your cards, you can't grab them back up after realizing you had a better hand.

We refer to the muck being the pile of dead cards where your cards are no longer identifiable. Perhaps that’s incorrect, but that was the distinction I was trying to make in this situation.

 

[CraigT78]

At the end of the day - the message to your group should be "Don't fold until there is an identified winner".

 

[Frogzilla]

TDA is on the side of player A.
14: Live Cards at Showdown

Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

 

[CraigT78]

TDA is on the side of player A. Rule 14

Link? I'd like to read up on this.

 

[Eloe2000]

At the end of the day - the message to your group should be "Don't fold until there is an identified winner".

Yeah for sure. I want to ring these guys’ necks. It’s the obvious approach and this has never happened in the 7yrs of playing with the usual regulars. But we are also trying to encourage these new guys and there was a fair bit of money on table. I just want to get the official ruling right.

 

[DoubleEagle]

#1 but is this based off of a hard rule or a “gentleman’s rule”?

From Robert’s Rules:

Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

 

[Eloe2000]

TDA is on the side of player A.
14: Live Cards at Showdown

Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

It’s exactly the TDA rule I am thinking of, but how does that match up against Player A verbally saying “fold”? Does that completely override the “fold”?

 

[Frogzilla]

Link? I'd like to read up on this.

Here’s the link and edited my post above with the rule

https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

 

[CraigT78]

From Robert’s Rules:

Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

With this said - I would change my stance on scenario #1 - but would stand firm with a warning not to discard your cards until you verify the straight is valid.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Link? I'd like to read up on this.

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change her mind and table her cards if they remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

 

[justsomedude]

Also... cards folded face up, but not in the muck, are still live.

 

[CraigT78]

Here’s the link and edited my post above with the rule

https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change her mind and table her cards if they remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

Thanks. I ruled #1 incorrectly. I agree now that Player A should win this pot.

 

[Beakertwang]

From Robert’s Rules:

Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

Since this is the RRoP rule, I’d probably award the 1st hand to A, as it’s in the best interest of my game not to have players misrepresenting their hands, whether it’s an angle or a drunken mistake. But I’d always encourage people not to prematurely fold their hands.

 

[Frogzilla]

It’s exactly the TDA rule I am thinking of, but how does that match up against Player A verbally saying “fold”? Does that completely override the “fold”?

Rule 58 about folding without facing bets only applies to “before the end of the final betting round”

 

[Beakertwang]

The wording of the RRoP and TDA rules have different implications. Would the ruling of either hand change if these were tourney hands?

 

[bigdonkey]

My take on it is that folding is an action. The round ended with the legal actions of bet (by B) and call (by A). Neither player can take any additional actions, including folding. At this points, cards speak. Either player can attempt to concede the hand by discarding, but it wouldn’t be official until the dealer mucks the cards. Until then the cards are live and can be tabled to claim the pot.

 

[BGinGA]

@Frogzilla and @bigdonkey are correct. In both cases, all action has been completed and the hand is at showdown. Player A's cards are live and capable of winning the hand at showdown until discarded AND killed by the dealer by inserting them into the muck pile. Subsequently, Player A wins in both scenarios with the best hand.

Additiinally, I would argue that having the best hand awarded the pot is almost always "in the best interest of the game", as it discourages angle-shooting.

Fwiw, "ITBIOTG" also an actual rule, which gives the house or TD some flexibility to make fair decisions when application of the rules might otherwise not be crystal clear.

And in poker, what could be more fair than the best hand winning the pot at showdown after all betting is completed? It's also the basis of 'cards speak', and allowing/encouraging non-involved players to point out possible hand-reading errors to ensure pots get awarded properly.

Tell the newbies that their best chance of winning the pot is to promptly reveal/table their hand at showdown -- after the cards are killed, it's too late.

Proper procedure for the dealer is to announce the winning hand from the tabled hands (physically indicating which board cards are used to make the winning hand), take the discarded and losing hands and kill them into the muck pile, and then award the pot to the winner.

 

[slisk250]

One thing that pisses me off in a tourney is when I make a tough call heads up and the guy just mucks them. I called the bet and am entitles to see both the cards. If they had air I want to know the holdings to help establish their range of starting hands...is this a set rule? Players being called must show hands?

 

[Frank]

One thing that pisses me off in a tourney is when I make a tough call heads up and the guy just mucks them. I called the bet and am entitles to see both the cards. If they had air I want to know the holdings to help establish their range of starting hands...is this a set rule? Players being called must show hands?

Here’s the link and edited my post above with the rule

https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

Looks like it's there:

18:

B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to see the last aggressor’s hand on request (“the hand they paid to see”) provided the caller tabled or retains his or her cards. TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].

The question I was going to ask was answered there too:

17:

B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last player with live cards wins and is not required to table the cards.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change her mind and table her cards if they remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

I agree with DoubleEagles assessment. I use WSOP rules to keep life simple and my game as consistent as possible. Per the WSOP, the rule below adds to situation A:

110. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort will be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of dealer error or incorrect information given to/by a Participant.