Roast my line: Jamming a combo draw in a multi-way 3! pot (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

Worst hand of the Saturday night 25NL zone session.
This and losing a flip (all in pre my QQ loses to V's AKo) put me down 1.5 BI on the session. Lost 2 BI in those two hands and - just couldnt win it all back. Extreme card deadness and got sucked out on the river several times offset my other winning hands for the most part.
I played Zone for a total of 4 hours and 20 mins. Ugh.
I think this was spewy - looking for feedback.

Folds to CO who opens to 3BB. Hero calls.
This is a mix of calling and folding for me, probably 35% call / 65% fold as the risk of being squeezed here is high.
This is a pure fold for Snowie FYI.

And SB squeezes for about 2.5X - a very small size IMHO. And then BB calls and CO calls.
I feel that I am priced in at over 5:1 with a hand that plays well multiway. Hero calls.
Pure call for Snowie as played (calling CO RFI).

Flop is pretty good for us as we flop a straight flush draw (gutter). SB cbets 1/2 pot.
BB calls and CO folds. Hero thinks it is close to a flip and maybe he has some FE so jams, plus there's dead money. Ugh. Spewy.

Thoughts? I put this in Equilab and I thought it was close at the time but I wasnt ahead, especially against SB.
I gave SB a range that I thought would squeeze for that size and cbet flop.
I gave BB a range with just PP 44 - TT.

SB call and BB folds. Didnt see that coming with the pre-flop 3! sizing.

Hero does not hit any of his outs.

 

[boltonguy]

Thinking about this a bit more. From the SB’s POV, my range is pretty condensed here. Just flatting pre to a CO RFI and then calling the 3! takes QQ and JJ out of my range. I do have 3 combos of 55 and 3 combos of QJs here IMHO, But the rest of my range is probably draws like 89s, 9Ts and maybe I’m playing AQ, KQ like this. Out walking the dog now but maybe I’ll put my perceived range into Equilab later. I do look strong jamming into two players which I think would weight me towards strength here. But hey who’s folding AA ever?

 

[Legend5555]

I don't really like this multiway at this stack depth. You have non-nut draws both ways and with the SB leading into 3 people, you can be pretty sure he isn't folding. AA or KK is really the BEST you can hope they have, and they still aren't going to fold that very often, if ever. And that's just part of their range. Couple that with the fact that the BB as a 3! cold caller can easily have JJ or QQ or a better draw, and I think this is just a fold on the flop. You got the best result you could hope for and it's still not amazing.

 

[boltonguy]

Agreed. Given the action I have to give him all AhXh and I am crushed here. Still eliminating spew from my game.

 

[TheDogg]

I don't like Zone because ranges will be pretty fucked until you get into higher limits.

That being said, the very small squeeze to me looks very nutted in Zone 25NL, and will generally be Kings that immediately fold to an Ace on the flop or Aces.

This is my interpretation of a GTO perspective:

Hands that we call a Button vs. Cutoff 3BB raise on that also want to shove on the flop for value with be 3 combinations of QJs, 3 combinations of 55, and 0-6 combinations of QJo, depending on how often we 3B, call, and fold that hand.

Our best bluffs on the board are our 1. Straight (and) flush draws and 2. Paired flush draws, which are less likely to be called by 2 pairs and sets, and have additional equity to trips or 2 pair.

For straight and flush draws we have:
9h8h
Th8h
Kh9h
AhTh
(no AhKh because we 3Bet that)
for gutshots

Th9h
KhTh
for double ended.

For paired flush draws, we have Ah5h, and maybe 6h5h or 5h4h.

Because our bluffs have so much equity, and we might be playing more than 6 value combinations we actually likely want more bluff hands vs. value hands, so we might bluff some of our additional nut flush draws, but if we consider 9h8h the edge of what we are bluffing, I actually believe we are underbluffing our hand and 9h8h is a must bluff. When we hold Ah, our opponent suddenly has 3 combinations of Aces vs. 6 combinations of Kings meaning we could be drawing to an overcard as well.

I'm not too concerned about facing a nut flush draw, which does have the odds to call, because we will generally be drawing to 3 or 6 straight outs, and then 6 pair outs as well. Plus, we block 2 combinations of the nut flush draw, and we have the same pair outs against Ah5h.

What I'm more surprised by is the call by AhAs. A raise all in after 2 people put money in on the flop looks super nutted, and if you hold the Ah, you remove more AhTh, Ah5h, and all the nut flush bluffs a balanced range would have, basically leaving you with the 5-7 remaining bluff hands which all have 45% equity or better vs. AA. Aces would require some thinking, but with the Ace of Hearts I would actually say it's a must fold here because it's a card you want a bluffing opponent to have much more than you with your made hand. If we assume our opponent has a perfectly balanced range, and we are ambivalent to calling or folding, it would make sense to split our calling/folding to AsAd AsAc AdAc without a heart call, and AhAd AhAs AhAc with a heart fold. And that's without even considering that we still have the BB acting behind us.

If your opponents/playerpool refuse to fold aces with the Ah in this position I think we have to move past GTO and into exploitative play, which might be to chase draws and try to stack with implied odds. Otherwise I think this is a cooler that you played perfectly.

 

[borisasaurus]

My 6-max ranges put 98s as a 3B! at small frequency and fold majority of the time to a 3x CO open. Even though these suited connectors love to play multi-way, I lean towards playing it a bit more aggressively for the most part, especially in zoom where the pool seems to over-fold to 3-bets. For context, I'm not really familiar with 25z, but I've played a relatively small sample in 10z.

 

[surfik]

Life..

 

[Zr1]

I don't like Zone because ranges will be pretty fucked until you get into higher limits.

That being said, the very small squeeze to me looks very nutted in Zone 25NL, and will generally be Kings that immediately fold to an Ace on the flop or Aces.

This is my interpretation of a GTO perspective:

Hands that we call a Button vs. Cutoff 3BB raise on that also want to shove on the flop for value with be 3 combinations of QJs, 3 combinations of 55, and 0-6 combinations of QJo, depending on how often we 3B, call, and fold that hand.

Our best bluffs on the board are our 1. Straight (and) flush draws and 2. Paired flush draws, which are less likely to be called by 2 pairs and sets, and have additional equity to trips or 2 pair.

For straight and flush draws we have:
9h8h
Th8h
Kh9h
AhTh
(no AhKh because we 3Bet that)
for gutshots

Th9h
KhTh
for double ended.

For paired flush draws, we have Ah5h, and maybe 6h5h or 5h4h.

Because our bluffs have so much equity, and we might be playing more than 6 value combinations we actually likely want more bluff hands vs. value hands, so we might bluff some of our additional nut flush draws, but if we consider 9h8h the edge of what we are bluffing, I actually believe we are underbluffing our hand and 9h8h is a must bluff. When we hold Ah, our opponent suddenly has 3 combinations of Aces vs. 6 combinations of Kings meaning we could be drawing to an overcard as well.

I'm not too concerned about facing a nut flush draw, which does have the odds to call, because we will generally be drawing to 3 or 6 straight outs, and then 6 pair outs as well. Plus, we block 2 combinations of the nut flush draw, and we have the same pair outs against Ah5h.

What I'm more surprised by is the call by AhAs. A raise all in after 2 people put money in on the flop looks super nutted, and if you hold the Ah, you remove more AhTh, Ah5h, and all the nut flush bluffs a balanced range would have, basically leaving you with the 5-7 remaining bluff hands which all have 45% equity or better vs. AA. Aces would require some thinking, but with the Ace of Hearts I would actually say it's a must fold here because it's a card you want a bluffing opponent to have much more than you with your made hand. If we assume our opponent has a perfectly balanced range, and we are ambivalent to calling or folding, it would make sense to split our calling/folding to AsAd AsAc AdAc without a heart call, and AhAd AhAs AhAc with a heart fold. And that's without even considering that we still have the BB acting behind us.

If your opponents/playerpool refuse to fold aces with the Ah in this position I think we have to move past GTO and into exploitative play, which might be to chase draws and try to stack with implied odds. Otherwise I think this is a cooler that you played perfectly.

A cooler? Played perfectly? No not even close. Legend said it perfectly its simply a fold on the flop. Stack depth not the great, you are behind everytime, No fold equity, your draw is to 2nd and 3rd best hand at best

 

[TheDogg]

A cooler? Played perfectly? No not even close. Legend said it perfectly its simply a fold on the flop. Stack depth not the great, you are behind everytime, No fold equity, your draw is to 2nd and 3rd best hand at best

I can see a fold preflop, but if you fold a straightflush draw 3 ways on the flop, why are you calling preflop? Once you call preflop and 2 hearts and a gutshot come out you can't fold, or else you need to be folding preflop if you're not willing to continue on an almost perfect board.

Our worst case scenario is facing both top pair and better and the nut flush draw, but in most cases we will have at least 40% equity three ways as we do end up having here. 40% > 33% so we're always continuing, and there's more already in the pot. There are a lot fewer nut flush draw combos available as well. Basically AhKh, AhTh, and Ah5h are what we see most of the time, because the board blocks 2 common combos, and we block 2 decent ones as well. If an opponent does have the Ah, it's much more likely it's stuck in an offsuit combo like AA, AKo, AQo, or AJo which is actually encouraged to fold to our bluff because of the removal it has vs. our hand. Ah is very important as a bluff card, but they can't bluff us if we're already all-in.

Even if you assume SB isn't folding the price to chase the draw is incredible, there's a lot of value to be had there if you can hit and stack him.

If we call and miss the turn, and SB or BB specifically sizes a shove, then we might have the odds to fold, but if we fold too much of our premium draws, and don't bluff them, villains can easily overbluff to steal from us, while overfolding to our bets which are weighted too much towards value.

 

[Zr1]

I can see a fold preflop, but if you fold a straightflush draw 3 ways on the flop, why are you calling preflop? Once you call preflop and 2 hearts and a gutshot come out you can't fold, or else you need to be folding preflop if you're not willing to continue on an almost perfect board.

Our worst case scenario is facing both top pair and better and the nut flush draw, but in most cases we will have at least 40% equity three ways as we do end up having here. 40% > 33% so we're always continuing, and there's more already in the pot. There are a lot fewer nut flush draw combos available as well. Basically AhKh, AhTh, and Ah5h are what we see most of the time, because the board blocks 2 common combos, and we block 2 decent ones as well. If an opponent does have the Ah, it's much more likely it's stuck in an offsuit combo like AA, AKo, AQo, or AJo which is actually encouraged to fold to our bluff because of the removal it has vs. our hand. Ah is very important as a bluff card, but they can't bluff us if we're already all-in.

Even if you assume SB isn't folding the price to chase the draw is incredible, there's a lot of value to be had there if you can hit and stack him.

If we call and miss the turn, and SB or BB specifically sizes a shove, then we might have the odds to fold, but if we fold too much of our premium draws, and don't bluff them, villains can easily overbluff to steal from us, while overfolding to our bets which are weighted too much towards value.

I would usually fold this pre flop. I disagree with you about the flop. That flop isnt close to a perfect board in this situation imo. We are behind, we have no nut draws, not deep enough