Reprinting old custom group buys (Who owns the rights?) (3 Viewers)

[Zippity]

Hi guys,

I have a quick question. This stems partially from Sixspeedfury's group buy of Matsui plaques, but has applicability to older sets as well. I'm thinking about protecting the custom plaques for higher stake games that I plan on hosting. Since Apache sells 100 and 20 dollar plaques to the general public, can he refill them at a constant rate? Is my "custom" really just a $1 discount from a possibly infinite reorder supply?

I guess to summarize my question, once a GB is finished, who has the legal copyrights to order more plaques? How can this be done? Can this be done? Can we approach the designer (in this case P5Woody) and have his permission to reprint plaques? Can any original member of the original group buy restart the process, or is this something that can only be done through the original group buy starter (in this case, SixSpeedFury?)

Thanks for your answers in advance.

 

[atomiktoaster]

This has come up before in the "GB Rules" thread. Here's my phrasing of the question: http://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/when-is-a-group-buy.7843/page-2#post-94665

In general, there was no consensus reached, unfortunately. I would have really liked some sort of decision that assets generated by the group buys need to be explicitly accounted for prior to taking orders, one way or another. In the specific case, you probably have to ask @SixSpeedFury, @p5woody and @Apache what their feelings are.

 

[jbutler]

@pltrgyst can correct my attempt to explain, but I believe I have it right in saying that unless there was an explicit agreement otherwise, the designer maintains the rights for the design and can consent to or deny a request for further production.

Sometimes people around here (and other forums where custom products are designed/purchased) will try to get the consent of the member who "ran" the GB or commissioned the design, but that's a function of forum etiquette rather than law.

IAAL, but may as well not be with regard to IP issues, so take the above for what it is worth (little).

 

[p5woody]

I am not a lawyer this is just my opinion so take it for what it is worth. Keep in mind J5 is on another level so I think is opinion will probably be a little different then mine. I think he keeps more ownership of the artwork.

In my case, I think it is a joint ownership between the customer and the designer (mostly the customer). The customer can do with it whatever they would like for personal use. If they want to take my artwork and create a dealer button, T-shirt, whatever, I am fine with that. Now if they want to sell my artwork to other members or websites, I would like to be involved in that discussion. I will not duplicate custom artwork without approval from the original customer.

Now in specific cases I have asked to keep the rights to the artwork and I will use the $5 plaque as an example. I originally created artwork for a $5 matsui plaque but it didn't look like it was going happen so I was asked if it could be used for MSK plaques. I talked to SixSpeedFury and he said that was fine and I made it clear I would keep ownership for the MSK plaque artwork so I could use it if the $5 matsui plaques ever happened. All parties agreed, so I moved forward. So in this case we may eventually end up with two versions where the artwork is very similar. I think the changes and version are different enough this would not be an issue. In this case, I would like to keep more control of the shared artwork. I also don't view this design as a personal custom design, it is based off US currency. So it is custom design I created for the general population not a specific member.

Specifically for the 100 and 20, from my perspective he paid me for the design so he can create as many as he wants. In hindsight I probably should have put some qualifications on this but I didn't. I did not put a one time limit on the runs or a specific number it could be used for. If somebody comes to me asking for an exact copy, I would send them to SixSpeedFury to get the artwork/plaques. For example, if Apache needs more plaques that is between SixSpeedFury, Apache, and Matsui it has nothing to do with me.

Now if you want your own custom plaques, I would create those for you. For example, I created a 'FAST CASH CLUB' version of the 100 plaque. So if you wanted a 'ZIPPITY DOO DAH' version, I wouldn't think that would be an issue, but I would still run it by SixSpeedFury to make sure there were no issues.

I hope my ramblings make sense.

 

[jbutler]

I am not a lawyer this is just my opinion so take it for what it is worth. Keep in mind J5 is on another level so I think is opinion will probably be a little different then mine. I think he keeps more ownership of the artwork.

In my case, I think it is a joint ownership between the customer and the designer (mostly the customer). The customer can do with it whatever they would like for personal use. If they want to take my artwork and create a dealer button, T-shirt, whatever, I am fine with that. Now if they want to sell my artwork to other members or websites, I would like to be involved in that discussion. I will not duplicate custom artwork without approval from the original customer.

Now in specific cases I have asked to keep the rights to the artwork and I will use the $5 plaque as an example. I originally created artwork for a $5 matsui plaque but it didn't look like it was going happen so I was asked if it could be used for MSK plaques. I talked to SixSpeedFury and he said that was fine and I made it clear I would keep ownership for the MSK plaque artwork so I could use it if the $5 matsui plaques ever happened. All parties agreed, so I moved forward. So in this case we may eventually end up with two versions where the artwork is very similar. I think the changes and version are different enough this would not be an issue. In this case, I would like to keep more control of the shared artwork. I also don't view this design as a personal custom design, it is based off US currency. So it is custom design I created for the general population not a specific member.

Specifically for the 100 and 20, from my perspective he paid me for the design so he can create as many as he wants. In hindsight I probably should have put some qualifications on this but I didn't. I did not put a one time limit on the runs or a specific number it could be used for. If somebody comes to me asking for an exact copy, I would send them to SixSpeedFury to get the artwork/plaques. For example, if Apache needs more plaques that is between SixSpeedFury, Apache, and Matsui it has nothing to do with me.

Now if you want your own custom plaques, I would create those for you. For example, I created a 'FASH CASH CLUB' version of the 100 plaque. So if you wanted a 'ZIPPITY DOO DAH' version, I wouldn't think that would be an issue, but I would still run it by SixSpeedFury to make sure there were no issues.

I hope my ramblings make sense.

I think we should be clear whether we're talking about the law or etiquette. Where we're talking about the law, what we think is irrelevant. If you think it's right to have joint ownership with the customer, that's great, but it will play zero part in determining whose consent is legally required to reproduce the design.

If we're talking about forum etiquette, that's a whole other story. While I'm completely in favor of forum members (here and CT together) trying to work together not to ruffle one another's feathers, we should all understand that those informal rules of etiquette have no enforcement mechanism and so should act accordingly when commissioning or producing a design.

 

[atomiktoaster]

I am not a lawyer this is just my opinion so take it for what it is worth. Keep in mind J5 is on another level so I think is opinion will probably be a little different then mine. I think he keeps more ownership of the artwork.

In my case, I think it is a joint ownership between the customer and the designer (mostly the customer). The customer can do with it whatever they would like for personal use. If they want to take my artwork and create a dealer button, T-shirt, whatever, I am fine with that. Now if they want to sell my artwork to other members or websites, I would like to be involved in that discussion. I will not duplicate custom artwork without approval from the original customer.

Now in specific cases I have asked to keep the rights to the artwork and I will use the $5 plaque as an example. I originally created artwork for a $5 matsui plaque but it didn't look like it was going happen so I was asked if it could be used for MSK plaques. I talked to SixSpeedFury and he said that was fine and I made it clear I would keep ownership for the MSK plaque artwork so I could use it if the $5 matsui plaques ever happened. All parties agreed, so I moved forward. So in this case we may eventually end up with two versions where the artwork is very similar. I think the changes and version are different enough this would not be an issue. In this case, I would like to keep more control of the shared artwork. I also don't view this design as a personal custom design, it is based off US currency. So it is custom design I created for the general population not a specific member.

Specifically for the 100 and 20, from my perspective he paid me for the design so he can create as many as he wants. In hindsight I probably should have put some qualifications on this but I didn't. I did not put a one time limit on the runs or a specific number it could be used for. If somebody comes to me asking for an exact copy, I would send them to SixSpeedFury to get the artwork/plaques. For example, if Apache needs more plaques that is between SixSpeedFury, Apache, and Matsui it has nothing to do with me.

Now if you want your own custom plaques, I would create those for you. For example, I created a 'FASH CASH CLUB' version of the 100 plaque. So if you wanted a 'ZIPPITY DOO DAH' version, I wouldn't think that would be an issue, but I would still run it by SixSpeedFury to make sure there were no issues.

I hope my ramblings make sense.

Let's see if I can make this sorta lawyer-ish...

So in your case, SixSpeedFury has an unlimited, exclusive license to use the exact artwork for plaques for any purpose (personal or commercial), but you retain the copyright and the right to create derivative works for other people (checking before you exercise that right with SSF as a courtesy?)?

Additionally, in a typical case for custom chips you design, the customer receives an exclusive unlimited license to use the art for personal use, including exclusive rights to create derivative works? (You retain the copyright in this case as well, which is the only mechanism to limit the art for personal use).

 

[p5woody]

I think we should be clear whether we're talking about the law or etiquette. Where we're talking about the law, what we think is irrelevant. If you think it's right to have joint ownership with the customer, that's great, but it will play zero part in determining whose consent is legally required to reproduce the design.

If we're talking about forum etiquette, that's a whole other story. While I'm completely in favor of forum members (here and CT together) trying to work together not to ruffle one another's feathers, we should all understand that those informal rules of etiquette have no enforcement mechanism and so should act accordingly when commissioning or producing a design.

I agree, my rambling was all about my opinion it has nothing to do with the law, legal consent, enforcement, etc.

 

[pltrgyst]

@pltrgyst can correct my attempt to explain, but I believe I have it right in saying that unless there was an explicit agreement otherwise, the designer maintains the rights for the design and can consent to or deny a request for further production....

IANAL also, but that is correct. That is why for any custom work I would want to have an explicit "work for hire" agreement -- that is, a contract wherein the designer is creating a design specifically for the customer, based on the customer's concept,in exchange for a fixed payment, and owns no further rights in any product based on that design in full or in part. That "work for hire" contract could also have a provision that pays the designer a percentage of the price or profit of anything produced based on the design.

But absent such a contract, or a contract limiting the designer's use of each specific end design, the art generally belongs to the designer, who can do with it as he pleases. IMO, anyone who pays for what he thinks is custom artwork on that basis is a fool.

Now another much broader area for the legal beagles is the case where a group, such as that in a PCF thread, contributes significant elements to a design. That could be a real can of worms should it turn nasty. It pays to spell everything out early among the group, in writing.

 

[p5woody]

Let's see if I can make this sorta lawyer-ish...

So in your case, SixSpeedFury has an unlimited, exclusive license to use the exact artwork for plaques for any purpose (personal or commercial), but you retain the copyright and the right to create derivative works for other people (checking before you exercise that right with SSF as a courtesy?)?

Additionally, in a typical case for custom chips you design, the customer receives an exclusive unlimited license to use the art for personal use, including exclusive rights to create derivative works? (You retain the copyright in this case as well, which is the only mechanism to limit the art for personal use).

Yea, I think that is what I said

 

[Zippity]

Well awesome.

I guess I'll go beg J5 to release Zen artwork to Matsui for a rerun. Probably cheaper for me to buy 1000 chips that way than it would be to scrape amongst collectors here.

/end sarcasm (or am I?)

 

[jbutler]

Well awesome.

I guess I'll go beg J5 to release Zen artwork to Matsui for a rerun. Probably cheaper for me to buy 1000 chips that way than it would be to scrape amongst collectors here.

/end sarcasm (or am I?)

You might have a good chance of prevailing if sued, but I dunno how you'll do if shunned.

 

[derekdd23]

Well awesome.

I guess I'll go beg J5 to release Zen artwork to Matsui for a rerun. Probably cheaper for me to buy 1000 chips that way than it would be to scrape amongst collectors here.

/end sarcasm (or am I?)

If he releases this, or decides to do the same deal taking a cut, i'm sure that there are some of us here that wouldn't mind jumping on that ship

 

[Zippity]

You might have a good chance of prevailing if sued, but I dunno how you'll do if shunned.

I'm joking. Half the reason I chose Zens was because its a really hard set to fill. I'd be shooting myself in the foot to get the set restarted considering how much I've already paid per chip so far.