Tourney Rebuy and Addon Poll (1 Viewer)

[CraigT78]

I wanted to start another poll to inquire how you handle rebuy/add on. If you host - great, but from a player perspective, which of the options above do you prefer?

1 - Rebuy when felted only
2 - Rebuy to starting stack at any point before break

3 - Add on at the break (x1 only)
4 - Add on any time prior to break (x1 only)

Please select one of each. I only ask because my last game a player suggested being able to rebuy when he was at 50 as his all it was not covered by his opponent. He went into round 6 with only 50 in chips. A lot of heads nodded that this would be a good idea moving forward. Thoughts?

 

[mummel]

I dont like add-ons. Forces players to add-on to prevent being at a disadvantage. Some folks have caps on their gambling cash for the night (i.e. 1 buy-in). Turns people off.

Rebuying to starting stack would be cumbersome to calculate, handle etc. A rebuy when felted makes the most sense IMO.

 

[CraigT78]

So far 5 votes for rebuying only when felted, as opposed to no votes for being able to rebuy up to the starting stack at any point prior to the break. Can anyone enlighten me to why that is?

 

[CraigT78]

Rebuying to starting stack would be cumbersome to calculate, handle etc.

I disagree - take away the players remaining chips, issue new starting stack. IMO it could be handled very easily. (Although not supporting this option, just thinking it through)

 

[DJ Mack]

Historically we've always allowed a rebuy after busting out before the first break and an optional add on to be used at any point after that. I've been thinking long and hard about ditching the add on and increasing the buy in. When all but one or two people buy the add on night after night what's the point?

Since we usually do a knock out bounty it's important to let people get knocked out before being able to rebuy. We do issue a new bounty token with a rebuy and the guys like having more of those in circulation. Obviously if you have to wait until you're knocked out to rebuy it goes without saying that your rebuy is to starting stacks.

In some ways all these little complexities are making me more anxious to get my cash set and host more cash games.

 

[CraigT78]

When all but one or two people buy the add on night after night what's the point?

Interesting question - I have found the point to be psychological. Every one of my players but the two chip leaders take the add-on. But when I made the buy in $20 more and had no add on, there was a lot of grumbling. A $40 buyin is cheap, even if they all add on later. At $60 buy-in the more casual players didn't show, even though they drop $120 to $200 a night.

 

[AWenger]

I only ask because my last game a player suggested being able to rebuy when he was at 50 as his all it was not covered by his opponent. He went into round 6 with only 50 in chips. A lot of heads nodded that this would be a good idea moving forward. Thoughts?

I changed my vote to "Rebuy to starting stack at any point before break" -- reading the above scenario is argument enough to endorse rebuys if a player still has chips. However, I think the rule should be worded more along the lines of "rebuy to starting stack when felted, or rebuy to starting stack at the break." Where (only) at the break after which rebuys aren't allowed anymore, if a player is really short stacked, he can forfeit his existing stack and Rebuy to the full stack.

It shouldn't really change the dynamic of a rebuy tournament where shorter stacks may try to go all-in before the break.

 

[ChaosRock]

So far 5 votes for rebuying only when felted, as opposed to no votes for being able to rebuy up to the starting stack at any point prior to the break. Can anyone enlighten me to why that is?

Is the re-buy for the full buy-in cost? If yes, then why would one give up their remaining chips for a full stack without any equity for it? If I have 15% of my stack and it's getting close to the end of the re-buy period, I rather jam against 2+ players and hope for a triple up +... Why would I give up that? If I loose, I can just re-buy full stack...

 

[CraigT78]

Is the re-buy for the full buy-in cost? If yes, then why would one give up their remaining chips for a full stack without any equity for it? If I have 15% of my stack and it's getting close to the end of the re-buy period, I rather jam against 2+ players and hope for a triple up +... Why would I give up that? If I loose, I can just re-buy full stack...

I do not question the "Why" of my request, I simply follow the thought "If I build it, they will come"

I think the reasoning was that if they are short stacked but aren't felted, they would like the option to buy back to the original starting stack. Yes - it would be the same price for 10k chips or 8,925 in chips.

 

[upNdown]

He went into round 6 with only 50 in chips.

Yup. That's how tournaments work.

 

[ChaosRock]

I do not question the "Why" of my request, I simply follow the thought "If I build it, they will come"

I think the reasoning was that if they are short stacked but aren't felted, they would like the option to buy back to the original starting stack. Yes - it would be the same price for 10k chips or 8,925 in chips.

LOL!!! Fair enough...

If that's the case, you can give them the option during break (right after the re-buy period ends) to either keep their chips or exchange them for a full stack... During play though, better not to mess around and do felted re-buys only... That solves the issue of one player chopping an all-in side pot during the last hand of the level and finishing the level with a couple of low denom chips without the possibility of re-buying...

 

[mummel]

Yeah but coloring up is so much easier if you know the amount of lower denoms on the table ($25 X 12 X 10 players = $3k = 3 X $1000 chips). If I'm taking away chips on the table so players can rebuy before they bust, then I have no idea WTF is on the table and cant keep track for the color ups. If I have 3 X $1k chips in hand for the color up, then I know I wont make mistakes.

Rebuy when felted and no add-ons still gets my vote.

 

[AWenger]

Let's say the starting stack is 10000, and there are two players involved in a big hand right before the last rebuy break, Player A has 15100 in chips, and Player B has 15000 in chips. The hand is a long one, bets on flop, turn, -- the timer goes off - so this will be the last hand before rebuys -- and then on the river, both players get all in. The scenarios can be either:

a) If player A wins the pot, Player B is stacked, and can then rebuy a full 10000 stack.
b) If player B wins the pot, Player A is left with 100 in chips. But if rules are such that rebuys require a player to have exactly zero chips to rebuy, then Player A cannot rebuy.
And there could be a player C, who was sitting there with a 1000 chip stack, who didn't have time to jam all-in because this hand took so long! Player C can't rebuy, either.

In these cases, I would allow a player to give up their chip stack for a full rebuy. But only at the last break before rebuys. Not before the last break.

I have no idea WTF is on the table and cant keep track for the color ups.

I agree this would be hard to track before the last break. But during the last break, just handle rebuys and color ups separately.

 

[mummel]

In these cases, I would allow a player to give up their chip stack for a full rebuy. But only at the last break before rebuys. Not before the last break.

I would do the same. The whole point of a rebuy is to make sure folks can last at least 1.5 hours, and then have a shot at some good poker after that for a decent amount of time to make a fun evening.

Table's discretion on decisions like this. No one is going to blow a gasket is player B starts round 7 with $10,100 in chips.

 

[mummel]

But Im glad you brought this up, because although I never ran into this issue at my last tourney, it came up for discussion, and I too need to implement some proper rules vs my house my rules lol.

My goal is as stated above - I want people to have fun. If you bust out in the first few rounds to a bad beat, you should not be sent home but get another shot. But at some point you need a cutoff so you dont go till 5am. I like the rebuys before the first color up / break idea, +1. But as to what happens when someone cant jam fast enough and is left with $2k in chips for example, what then?

Anyone have a good idea on how to deal with this?

Oh and if you are doing bounties, the guys have to bust out correct? You cant just do a rebuy if the guy has $100 in chips + a bounty chip.

 

[AWenger]

if you are doing bounties, the guys have to bust out correct?

Good question about bounties. I don't know the answer, I haven't played in too many (any?) tournaments that have both Bounties and Rebuys. I guess have to be felted before rebuy might be the correct way to run a Bounty & Rebuy tournament, though.

 

[mummel]

Good question about bounties. I don't know the answer, I haven't played in too many (any?) tournaments that have both Bounties and Rebuys. I guess have to be felted before rebuy might be the correct way to run a Bounty & Rebuy tournament, though.

Yeah and make it clear to folks that those are the rules. With 30min to go, be aware you need to jam.

 

[Marius L]

I would allow people to rebuy up to start stack at any point if they so wish. If someone dont want to play their 225 chips or another random low amount (of a 10k start stack), I can understand that, and would let them rebuy before the new hand is dealt. The cost would be the same for 9775, 10 000 as well as for any other random lower amount up to starting stack. Pretty much agree with @AWenger 's logic, but would extend it to letting people rebuy at whatever time they wish, and not only just before the last break.

If it was a bounty torunament they would have to actually get to 0 chips before rebuying.

 

[churlbut18]

I didn't have time to read the entire thread but wanted to offer up what I think works well.

Allow a single rebuy/add-on combo option at any point up to your "break", where a player is allowed to do one or the other but one and only one.

 

[Adam Crowley]

There is another option that I personally prefer.

Have two different styles of tournaments.

Standard rebuy starting stack of x. Can rebuy when felted for set period of time. No add on. (Basically a standard tournament, where if you bust early you can keep playing instead of sitting around going home)

R/A tournament. Starting stack of x, can rebuy anytime current stack is = or < x, for a set period of time (this includes being able to double rebuy at the start + when felted) At the end of the rebuy period. Players take a break and can add on if they want.

R/A tournaments are good because it doesn't matter if they have 500 left they can rebuy 1x and have x+500.

 

[stocky]

We offer the following.

Rebuys until first break only when felted OR under 1 bb.

Add on at the break.

Even if I was offered rebuys up to starting stack I would just rather jam every hand until I bust or double/triple up.

 

[mummel]

We offer the following.

Rebuys until first break only when felted OR under 1 bb.

Add on at the break.

Even if I was offered rebuys up to starting stack I would just rather jam every hand until I bust or double/triple up.

What do you / would you do with bounties?

 

[ekricket]

Late reply here - we handle it like this:
Starting stack is 15,000. One 5000 chip and the rest is smaller chips. The 5000 is not in play unless you get felted in the first hour, then it's your half rebuy. If you still have it at the end of the first hour it's your addon.
We've found that this makes the rebuy/addon easier for the host to manage, plus it discourages those "death shoves" just to get to the felt to rebuy. It actually encourages correct play as you get short stacked, so you can make the first hour and get that 5000 addon.
It eliminates the all-in fest as the first hour closes, which typically only helps the big stacks chip up even more from those shovers with crappy hands who want to lose.

 

[Poker Zombie]

As a player in casinos: take the addon right out of the gate.
As a player in home games: I prefer a single rebuy, need not be felted.

As a host: We allow a single rebuy at any time for 110% of the starting stack, but you forfeit any chips you have in play. Yes, @mummel , this means I don't know exactly how many chips are in play during a color-up, but you don't know how many chips are on any table if one player had to switch seats for balancing at any time. Get over it.

Coloring up 25s, grab a rack with hundos, 500s, 1000s and a few 5000s and one or two 25ks if you need them for that night. That 1 rack will cover every single color-up for the night. If you're bringing three T1000s to color up T25s... you're doing it wrong - very, very wrong.

As @ChaosRock said, it's still a bit negative EV to reload when you still have live chips fighting for you, but the 110% eases the pain, if just a bit. It also means not having to shove with junk as the rebuy clock winds down. Giving up chips to the bank is -EV. Giving them to an opponent is an even worse -EV.

 

[buffalosldr]

I host and only do a rebuy per player, so if someone gets felted quick, they didn't drive all the way over for 15-45 min of fun. Also my rebuy is anytime to starting stack. This helped stop the shove fest before the break.

I don't do add ons and I actually hate rebuys.

 

[abby99]

One type of tournament is known as a triple stack (not the 3x stack used by the WSOP) where the player gets 1 stack plus 2 special chips, each of which can be redeemed for an additional starting stack at any time (between hands, of course) until the break or other defined time. Special chips that were not redeemed by the end of the redemption period are worthless. Say the starting stack is T5K. A player may start with 5K, 10K, or 15K at the beginning of the tournament.

This type of tournament isn't for everybody, but when the player pool is divided on how rebuys and add-ons should be handled, this could be an interesting solution.

 

[Poker Zombie]

One type of tournament is known as a triple stack (not the 3x stack used by the WSOP) where the player gets 1 stack plus 2 special chips, each of which can be redeemed for an additional starting stack at any time (between hands, of course) until the break or other defined time. Special chips that were not redeemed by the end of the redemption period are worthless. Say the starting stack is T5K. A player may start with 5K, 10K, or 15K at the beginning of the tournament.

This type of tournament isn't for everybody, but when the player pool is divided on how rebuys and add-ons should be handled, this could be an interesting solution.

My fear with this is the possibility of chip-dumping between spouses / close friends.

 

[abby99]

My fear with this is the possibility of chip-dumping between spouses / close friends.

How would chip dumping be more of a factor than in a regular tournament with rebuys and add-ons? I'm not a tournament person and have never played a tournament like this, but if we're hosting a tournament with players taking opposite sides on rebuy/add-on practices, there might be some common ground with this type of tournament.

I did watch some heads-up matches on TV (back when poker was on TV more often) that used this method. The players were pros, but you could see how they approached their stack management.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Chip dumping is always a possibility (I have a algorithm that scans for it), but if the reload is essentially free, there is no risk - just reward.
Heads up it is obviously different as you are still playing to felt your only opponent in the round.

 

[abby99]

Granted, but they're essentially free for everybody so isn't it a level playing field?