Raise and Hit a good flop with me in $185 Live Freezeout Tourney

Anthony Martino

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9-handed $185 freezeout at Derby Lane in St Pete, Florida. Players start with 30K chips, 30 minute blinds that started at 100/100 and a bb ante kicked in on level 3. For the most part this tournament has played significantly tighter than the normal daily events that feature rebuys.

We are now level 4:

Blinds 200/400 with a 300 bb ante

Heros stack: 31-32K
Folds to Hero in the HJ who raises to 1200 with :ad::7d:

Hero has only revealed decent holdings at showdown, table is a mix of weak regs, a couple of maniacs and a solid player or two.

To Heros surprise, the remaining four players left to act ALL call his raise:

CO: decent LAG in his late 20's or early 30's
Button: Old Man Coffee
SB: middle aged eastern European guy, doesn't seem all that good but hasn't done anything super dumb yet either
BB: middle aged woman with headphones, seems to be known by other regs and seems to be fairly solid


Pot: 6,300

Flop: :5d::ac::3d:

Checks around to Hero, Hero ????
 

Beakertwang

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I’d c-bet every time here. Probably 3000-3500.
Oonly hands I’m really worried about are sets,and better aces, including A5, A3. Maybe you’ll get called by some diamond connectors or a KdXd. You can improve agains better hands, and you want the weaker hands to come along.
 

Anthony Martino

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9-handed $185 freezeout at Derby Lane in St Pete, Florida. Players start with 30K chips, 30 minute blinds that started at 100/100 and a bb ante kicked in on level 3. For the most part this tournament has played significantly tighter than the normal daily events that feature rebuys.

We are now level 4:

Blinds 200/400 with a 300 bb ante

Heros stack: 31-32K
Folds to Hero in the HJ who raises to 1200 with :ad::7d:

Hero has only revealed decent holdings at showdown, table is a mix of weak regs, a couple of maniacs and a solid player or two.

To Heros surprise, the remaining four players left to act ALL call his raise:

CO: decent LAG in his late 20's or early 30's
Button: Old Man Coffee
SB: middle aged eastern European guy, doesn't seem all that good but hasn't done anything super dumb yet either
BB: middle aged woman with headphones, seems to be known by other regs and seems to be fairly solid


Pot: 6,300

Flop: :5d::ac::3d:

Checks around to Hero, Hero bets 4200

CO and Button fold, SB announces raise and tosses out a single 10K value chip, and has 11K behind. BB folds, action on Hero who has 29K remaining in his stack. Hero ????
 

Blacksox1

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9-handed $185 freezeout at Derby Lane in St Pete, Florida. Players start with 30K chips, 30 minute blinds that started at 100/100 and a bb ante kicked in on level 3. For the most part this tournament has played significantly tighter than the normal daily events that feature rebuys.

We are now level 4:

Blinds 200/400 with a 300 bb ante

Heros stack: 31-32K
Folds to Hero in the HJ who raises to 1200 with :ad::7d:

Hero has only revealed decent holdings at showdown, table is a mix of weak regs, a couple of maniacs and a solid player or two.

To Heros surprise, the remaining four players left to act ALL call his raise:

CO: decent LAG in his late 20's or early 30's
Button: Old Man Coffee
SB: middle aged eastern European guy, doesn't seem all that good but hasn't done anything super dumb yet either
BB: middle aged woman with headphones, seems to be known by other regs and seems to be fairly solid


Pot: 6,300

Flop: :5d::ac::3d:

Checks around to Hero, Hero bets 4200

CO and Button fold, SB announces raise and tosses out a single 10K value chip, and has 11K behind. BB folds, action on Hero who has 29K remaining in his stack. Hero ????
Wait for his reaction when the dealer informs him, sir, I consider this to be a min raise!
 

Anthony Martino

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9-handed $185 freezeout at Derby Lane in St Pete, Florida. Players start with 30K chips, 30 minute blinds that started at 100/100 and a bb ante kicked in on level 3. For the most part this tournament has played significantly tighter than the normal daily events that feature rebuys.

We are now level 4:

Blinds 200/400 with a 300 bb ante

Heros stack: 31-32K
Folds to Hero in the HJ who raises to 1200 with :ad::7d:

Hero has only revealed decent holdings at showdown, table is a mix of weak regs, a couple of maniacs and a solid player or two.

To Heros surprise, the remaining four players left to act ALL call his raise:

CO: decent LAG in his late 20's or early 30's
Button: Old Man Coffee
SB: middle aged eastern European guy, doesn't seem all that good but hasn't done anything super dumb yet either
BB: middle aged woman with headphones, seems to be known by other regs and seems to be fairly solid


Pot: 6,300

Flop: :5d::ac::3d:

Checks around to Hero, Hero bets 4200

CO and Button fold, SB announces raise and tosses out a single 10K value chip, and has 11K behind. BB folds, action on Hero who has 29K remaining in his stack. Hero shoves all-in.

I figured this is the flop I'm trying to hit when I raise this type of hand, and I have an opportunity to stack up nicely (or still have 20 bigs if I lose the hand) and my opponent thought for a few seconds, kinda did a shrug of his shoulders and called with :as::jh: Kinda a weird play for him to make. He's check-raising half his stack into a tight opponent who most likely has a range advantage against him (I mean, I bet 2/3rd the pot with 2 of my 4 opponents still to act, so the chances I'm overplaying KK on an Ace-high board is pretty much zero).

As it turns out, we were essentially a coin-flip, with a small chance of splitting the pot as well. Unfortunately I didn't get there and he doubled through me, but would bust before me.

He actually doubled me up later in the tourney when I limped KQ from the button after another couple of limpers and we saw a KQ7 two diamond flop. He bet, I raised, he shoved and I snapped, he flipped over KT offsuit, lol.
 
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nezara

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I'd play that hand differently. A lot of course depends on how I bet previous hands in the tournament and I'd be awful tempted to follow a pretty consistent style.

If that's out, I would be tempted to try and pull more people into the pot. Your hand is by no means made, with 4 callers there's a real high chance of another A out there with a better kicker than the 7. Since the other cards on the flop are so small the kicker will almost certainly play. I'd make a small bet that makes me look weak or suspicious of a monster in hopes of pulling in multiple callers that have some sort of pot odds. Multiple callers also makes others with A<KQJ> possibly play a bit more cautiously. I'd have a hard time getting off the hand, but I think building the pot helps me win more in the long run.

The other downside of the big bet is if I don't hit the diamond on the turn, then I'm tempted to check from my position if we don't end up escalating before that. That starts to make it look like I'm on a flush draw and I'm less likely to cash on the river or have to make a bet I really prefer not to make on the turn.

I know it's a more passive style of play and in a lot of situations I don't like it. In tournaments with a lot of callers like that I like to try and build the pot and limit exposure at a relatively early stage of the tournament.
 

Anthony Martino

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I'd play that hand differently. A lot of course depends on how I bet previous hands in the tournament and I'd be awful tempted to follow a pretty consistent style.

If that's out, I would be tempted to try and pull more people into the pot. Your hand is by no means made, with 4 callers there's a real high chance of another A out there with a better kicker than the 7. Since the other cards on the flop are so small the kicker will almost certainly play. I'd make a small bet that makes me look weak or suspicious of a monster in hopes of pulling in multiple callers that have some sort of pot odds. Multiple callers also makes others with A<KQJ> possibly play a bit more cautiously. I'd have a hard time getting off the hand, but I think building the pot helps me win more in the long run.

The other downside of the big bet is if I don't hit the diamond on the turn, then I'm tempted to check from my position if we don't end up escalating before that. That starts to make it look like I'm on a flush draw and I'm less likely to cash on the river or have to make a bet I really prefer not to make on the turn.

I know it's a more passive style of play and in a lot of situations I don't like it. In tournaments with a lot of callers like that I like to try and build the pot and limit exposure at a relatively early stage of the tournament.
That's a consideration as well. But with four preflop callers the pot was already pretty sizeable for that blind level, so I wasn't adverse to taking it down on the flop either.
 

Anthony Martino

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How people can call their whole 50bb+ stack off with one pair continues to baffle, please, and annoy me.
I love it, people are so bad at poker it's fantastic! Sure sometimes it bites you in the rear, but these are the people who are trying to throw chips at you. Next time I'll just have :ad::kd: so he's really in rough shape :p
 

kmccormick100

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C bet is way too big in my mind, you're not trying to get anything to fold, you're beat by a lot of better Aces and you're crushing all of the draws at the moment. When your large c-bet faces pressure in the form of even a small raise you now have to go with it as you want to see two cards to realize your full equity.

I much prefer a cbet of 2.4-3k here, which would allow you to call a raise to 5-8k and reevaluate on the turn. A lot of players aren't continuing to apply heavy pressure with mediocre Aces (AJ in this case) as you should have a lot of better aces in your range and you might see the river card for free anyway.

As played you were flipping to double up for a big stack, so not a terrible spot.
 

Moxie Mike

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As it turns out, we were essentially a coin-flip, with a small chance of splitting the pot as well. Unfortunately I didn't get there and he doubled through me, but would bust before me.
I'd have played the hand the same way with the one difference that I'd probably overbet this flop to about 7 or 8k. You're happy to take the pot down there - you're even happier to get your stack in.

As to the hand itself - I'm curious as to why you posted this for feedback as your lines were all pretty standard. Are you second guessing yourself because you lost the hand?
 

Anthony Martino

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As to the hand itself - I'm curious as to why you posted this for feedback as your lines were all pretty standard. Are you second guessing yourself because you lost the hand?
I felt like I played it ok, but I recognize I still have much to learn and wanted to see how others might size their bets in this spot

And given how early it is in a freezeout format if anyone doesn't shove after the check-raise (stack preservation vs accumulation)
 

Moxie Mike

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I felt like I played it ok, but I recognize I still have much to learn and wanted to see how others might size their bets in this spot

And given how early it is in a freezeout format if anyone doesn't shove after the check-raise (stack preservation vs accumulation)
The first problem with flatting the check-raise you were facing is that you have no plan for what to do if you don't improve on the turn. Assuming villian open-shoves when the turn blanks off, are you going to call off another 11k to chase your draw? From a pot-odds standpoint you'd be getting about the right price - but it's a lot of chips to commit.

The only case for flatting the check-raise is if you plan to fold to future aggression when you miss in the interest of stack preservation, which is a legit philosophy.

The other problem with flatting the check-raise is you give your opponent a chance to fold when your flush comes in... he may very well check and fold to a diamond on the turn.

As to stack preservation vs. accumulation... I'm always looking to chip-up. As such, my results are that I usually either make a deep run in tournaments or I'm out early. I don't know that this is fundamentally correct or whathaveyou - just one philosophy.
 

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It wasn't unreasonable for Hero to expect a fold from villain's AJo given Hero's preflop raise. Hero's presumed fold equity is a big part of the value from the flop + the suited ace. If Hero can't get a villain holding top pair / good kicker to fold, he is down to praying for a lucky result on a coin flip for stacks.
 

Moxie Mike

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It wasn't unreasonable for Hero to expect a fold from villain's AJo given Hero's preflop raise. Hero's presumed fold equity is a big part of the value from the flop + the suited ace.
I used to think this way - but I've been there so many times that I've come to the firm conclusion that villians who call PFRs with AT/AJ/AQ never fold when an ace hits the flop. They just don't.
 

ekricket

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9-handed $185 freezeout at Derby Lane in St Pete, Florida. Players start with 30K chips, 30 minute blinds that started at 100/100 and a bb ante kicked in on level 3. For the most part this tournament has played significantly tighter than the normal daily events that feature rebuys.

We are now level 4:

Blinds 200/400 with a 300 bb ante

Heros stack: 31-32K
Folds to Hero in the HJ who raises to 1200 with :ad::7d:

Hero has only revealed decent holdings at showdown, table is a mix of weak regs, a couple of maniacs and a solid player or two.

To Heros surprise, the remaining four players left to act ALL call his raise:

CO: decent LAG in his late 20's or early 30's
Button: Old Man Coffee
SB: middle aged eastern European guy, doesn't seem all that good but hasn't done anything super dumb yet either
BB: middle aged woman with headphones, seems to be known by other regs and seems to be fairly solid


Pot: 6,300

Flop: :5d::ac::3d:

Checks around to Hero, Hero ????
I know there’s replies and conclusion already, but I’ll throw n my two cents

I would have folded A7 preflop, suited or not. Depending on the table, I might have limped for the flush possibility, but not raise. One of my biggest leaks in tourney play that I have plugged somewhat is playing ace rag suited or not.
After the flop the only ace you are ahead of is A4 or A6. Any other person that called your raise preflop with an ace - and there were four so pretty good odds one of them has one. As mentioned above, in today’s climate nobody is folding an ace here. Look what you did with one.
Trouble hands lead to nothing but trouble.

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