Cash Game Question from a noob about workhorse chipps in a cash game (1 Viewer)

[Toaster]

Hello everyone,

I want to start off by thanking everyone that has posted helpful information in this forum. I am hosting my first ever home game this weekend and have been reading a lot of the cash game breakdowns on this site. I just created this account so I could talk to you friendly people.

The information on this forum has been very helpful so far, but there is something I don't understand that I am hoping can be cleared up.

I plan on playing 0.25/0.25 NLH with an 80-100 BB buy in (whatever my friends are comfortable with). I have seen many posts that suggest that in this format, the $1 chip will be the workhorse chip. I am having trouble understanding this because that is essentially a 4-bet, which I would think doesn't happen every hand. If that's the case, how is the $1 the workhorse chip? Am I missing something?

I'll also add that both me and my friends know the rules, but many of us have not played regularly (some of us at all) in the last 10 or so years.

Thanks!

Toaster

 

[Rieguy]

Welcome!

Everyone's games play differently. For your $80-$100 buy-in, you may want to consider playing .25/.50 over .25/.25. Those blinds are in more in line with the stated buy-in and would likely result in the $1 being your workhorse chip. That being said, you know your group better than us and if that seems to be too much of an increase, then the quarter will undoubtedly be your workhorse chip and you will want to get more of those in your set.

 

[Toaster]

Hi Rieguy. Thanks for your response. I meant 80-100 Big Blinds, so about $20-$25 buy in. I know most of the people coming, but I don't know how they'll play. I assume they'll be conservative because they haven't played in so long. I was just trying to make sure there wasn't something I am missing from those other posts that suggest the $1 workhorse based on my assumption that most people won't be 4-betting all the time.

 

[BPTDirector]

I think OP stated 80 to 100 BB as the buy in which would be less than $80 to $100. So yes the .25 chip I think would be his workhorse chip in this case. You are talking $20 to $25 buy in

 

[Rieguy]

I think OP stated 80 to 100 BB as the buy in which would be less than $80 to $100. So yes the .25 chip I think would be his workhorse chip in this case. You are talking $20 to $25 buy in

I'll blame that on not finishing my coffee yet .

I totally agree with you. OP may want to consider adding a 5c chip then at such stakes, with the quarter being the workhorse chip either way.

 

[upNdown]

Am I missing something?

The flop, turn, and river?
There's betting on each street. Once the pot gets bigger, the bets will get bigger, in NLHE. And those bets will be made with $1s, and maybe even $5s.

 

[turboj623]

@Rieguy and @BPTDirector pretty much covered it. It also depends on how your friends likes to bet and how many chips you want on the table. I used to play in a regular game that was .25/.50 and everyone wanted a lot of chips to play with. So, we exclusively used .25 chips in the beginning. But as the pots and bets got bigger, people were having to bet whole barrels for a $5 dollar bet. So it made sense to incorporate $1s as the workhorse.

 

[Toaster]

The flop, turn, and river?
There's betting on each street. Once the pot gets bigger, the bets will get bigger, in NLHE. And those bets will be made with $1s, and maybe even $5s.

Thanks for your response. Is it normal for someone to 4-bet the flop, turn, and river? I suppose this is the part I am trying to understand. If the answer is yes, then of course it makes sense that the $1 or $5 might be the workhorse. If, instead, there are 3-bets on each street, then the $0.25 chip will be the workshorse. Like I said, it's been a long time since I've played poker, so just trying to understand what to expect.

 

[grebe]

The quarter and the dollar will both be used pretty frequently in this game. Seeing that you are playing NLH (no limit), your raise will be .50 to $2 USUALLY. How do you get those bets? Well, minimum is double the big blind, and a BIG open would be 8X. So, considering a bet of a dollar pre and a caller, there will be roughly $2.50 in the pot. Half pot bet would be pretty typical....so $1.25. A bet and a call will give you $5. Now you are betting dollars the rest of the way.

This is what the workhorse chip means....what chip is used most often in betting. At .25/.25, you will still be playing a lot with quarters, but the dollar will be used a bunch too. Some games, like $1/3, the ones will just be used for the blinds and most betting will be with $5's...thus that would be your workhorse.

 

[Toaster]

@Rieguy and @BPTDirector pretty much covered it. It also depends on how your friends likes to bet and how many chips you want on the table. I used to play in a regular game that was .25/.50 and everyone wanted a lot of chips to play with. So, we exclusively used .25 chips in the beginning. But as the pots and bets got bigger, people were having to bet whole barrels for a $5 dollar bet. So it made sense to incorporate $1s as the workhorse.

Got it! I suppose I am having a hard time imagining that someone who wants to buy in for $25 at the high end is going to be betting $5.

 

[BPTDirector]

The flop, turn, and river?
There's betting on each street. Once the pot gets bigger, the bets will get bigger, in NLHE. And those bets will be made with $1s, and maybe even $5s.

OP makes it sound like his friends are pretty conservative and not the degens who regularly bet $1 to $5. I have friends like this.

 

[grebe]

Also, a 4-bet would mean a raise, a re-raise (3Bet), then another raise. Using typical sizes for your game, it would look like this:
-Raise $1
-3Bet $3
-4Bet $7

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I plan on playing 0.25/0.25 NLH with an 80-100 BB buy in (whatever my friends are comfortable with). I have seen many posts that suggest that in this format, the $1 chip will be the workhorse chip. I am having trouble understanding this because that is essentially a 4-bet, which I would think doesn't happen every hand. If that's the case, how is the $1 the workhorse chip? Am I missing something?

The workhorse chip is the chip that's going to do the most work across all streets, not just preflop.

Quarters are "blinds" chips in this game. They'll be sufficient for preflop betting but that's about it. After the flop, bets are going to move into the $2 and larger range, and the $1 chips are going to do most of the betting work.

That's why $1 is typically the workhorse chip in a .25/.25 or .25/.50 game.

 

[LeLe]

With both Blind at 25c any raise will be at around $1 and with pot size of $2.50 to $4 at flop $1chip will likely be in use and so is truth for the turn and river thus you will use $1 chip way more often as workhorse chip

However, as your group are only comfortable with $20 buy in it is best to play 5c/10c or 10/20c will be more suitable for your game

My family are also only comfortable with $20 buyin and we been playing years of 10c/20c with 10c chip as blind and 50c + $1 as the workhorse chip

 

[Rhodeman77]

Post flop most of your bets should be $1 or larger. Sure you can use 25c to make those bets but it will be easier to have plenty of $1 and a few $5’s on the table.

I’d recommend 20ea 25c chips, 20-40 $1 chips, and the rest in $5’s for your starting buy-in.

 

[LeLe]

Also I just notice when OP saying 4 bet he didn’t mean 4 bet he actually mean 4x blind bet

 

[Toaster]

Also I just notice when OP saying 4 bet he didn’t mean 4 bet he actually mean 4x blind bet

It appears that I also misunderstand! (emphasis on the 'noob' in the title). I assumed that a 4-bet was 4 times the BB. Is that wrong?

Thanks for everyone's patience!

 

[aggie]

With $20-25 buy-ins, you could get away with (20) .25s and (20) $1s.

Especially if it's a new group with new players, I do recommend introducing a "third denomination" into the culture of the game as early and often as possible, otherwise $1s will potentially become a psychological store of value .... which you do not want. Simply seeing those $5s on the table will be good for the game in my opinion/experience.

At a minimum, give $25 buy-ins a shot at (20) .25s and (20) $1s, and maybe $20 rebuys at (10) $1s and (2) $5s.

 

[DrBill]

I notice you keep saying 4 bet, but I assume you are meaning 4 times the big blind, and if you are asking if it’s normal for people to make the bet sizing 4x the big blind pre flop…..100%.

Now, it really depends on how conservative your players are, but trust me, after a few times of playing, that pre-flop bet will regularly be in the 4x to 8x range. Easily.

I’ve played these exact stakes for about 3 years now in a home game and the $1 chip is most definitely the work horse chip, but if you like more chips on the table (which a lot of people do) get almost as many quarters as you to ones. That way you can add some spice to your bets such as a $2.75 bet for example, rather than just making it a $3 bet because you have so little fracs on the table, and people only end up using them as blinds.

A good starting set up for a $25 buy in at .25/.25 would be
.25 - 200
$1 - 400
$5 - 100

 

[Toaster]

With $20-25 buy-ins, you could get away with (20) .25s and (20) $1s.

Especially if it's a new group with new players, I do recommend introducing a "third denomination" into the culture of the game as early and often as possible, otherwise $1s will potentially become a psychological store of value .... which you do not want. Simply seeing those $5s on the table will be good for the game in my opinion/experience.

At a minimum, give $25 buy-ins a shot at (20) .25s and (20) $1s, and maybe $20 rebuys at (10) $1s and (2) $5s.

I like your rebuy idea, and I completely understand the idea of avoiding the $1 becoming the psychological store of value. I was thinking of including one $5 chip in the starting stack just to get 3 denoms on the table, but I like your idea of including the $5 in the rebuy. Keeps the original starting stacks cleaner and easier to partition. I also thought of incorporating $2.50 chips instead of $5 (my chips are all non-denom, so I can mix it up however).

 

[DrBill]

With $20-25 buy-ins, you could get away with (20) .25s and (20) $1s.

Especially if it's a new group with new players, I do recommend introducing a "third denomination" into the culture of the game as early and often as possible, otherwise $1s will potentially become a psychological store of value .... which you do not want. Simply seeing those $5s on the table will be good for the game in my opinion/experience.

At a minimum, give $25 buy-ins a shot at (20) .25s and (20) $1s, and maybe $20 rebuys at (10) $1s and (2) $5s.

This is accurate.

 

[turboj623]

With $20-25 buy-ins, you could get away with (20) .25s and (20) $1s.

Especially if it's a new group with new players, I do recommend introducing a "third denomination" into the culture of the game as early and often as possible, otherwise $1s will potentially become a psychological store of value .... which you do not want. Simply seeing those $5s on the table will be good for the game in my opinion/experience.

At a minimum, give $25 buy-ins a shot at (20) .25s and (20) $1s, and maybe $20 rebuys at (10) $1s and (2) $5s.

This is exactly how we evolved the chips present on the table.

 

[Toaster]

I notice you keep saying 4 bet, but I assume you are meaning 4 times the big blind, and if you are asking if it’s normal for people to make the bet sizing 4x the big blind pre flop…..100%.

Now, it really depends on how conservative your players are, but trust me, after a few times of playing, that pre-flop bet will regularly be in the 4x to 8x range. Easily.

I’ve played these exact stakes for about 3 years now in a home game and the $1 chip is most definitely the work horse chip, but if you like more chips on the table (which a lot of people do) get almost as many quarters as you to ones. That way you can add some spice to your bets such as a $2.75 bet for example, rather than just making it a $3 bet because you have so little fracs on the table, and people only end up using them as blinds.

A good starting set up for a $25 buy in at .25/.25 would be
.25 - 200
$1 - 400
$5 - 100

Thanks for this! I haven't played yet, but I think I will like having more chips on the table. I also think I will like having more betting options with more fracs on the table.

I currently have a 500 chips sets which is all non-denoms with the followingg breakdown

White - 150
Blue - 200
Red - 100
Black - 50

 

[upNdown]

It appears that I also misunderstand! (emphasis on the 'noob' in the title). I assumed that a 4-bet was 4 times the BB. Is that wrong?

Thanks for everyone's patience!

Right. As the other guy said, a bet that was 4 times the big blind would be called a 4x bet (or more accurately, a 4x raise.). And for what it’s worth, a 4x raise would be a very standard first raise, preflop, in a cash game. Some noobs may raise 2x, some tournament players (like me) might feel more comfortable with a 3x raise, and some cash grinders might go 5x or 6x - there’s no telling how your game will play, until it does. But typically a 4x raise would be pretty common.
you guys can play however you want, and if you’re all noobs, you might be raising each other quarter by quarter, and that’s fine; you’ll find your own way.
But think about it this way. Suppose the blinds are in, and the first guy to act raises to 50 cents, and he gets a caller and the two blinds call as well. Now you’ve got 4 to a flop, with a pot of $2. If somebody likes the flop, you think they’re gonna bet only a quarter, into a $2 pot, playing 4-way? Maybe, but that would be bad poker. He’s more likely to bet a buck. Say he gets a caller.
Now it’s heads up on the turn with a pot of $4. See how this is going, with the use of $1 chips?
Nobody’s telling you the $1 HAS to me your workhorse chip. We’re just saying that playing typical NLHE with .25/.25 blinds, you’re likely to use more $1 chips than any others.

 

[DrBill]

Thanks for this! I haven't played yet, but I think I will like having more chips on the table. I also think I will like having more betting options with more fracs on the table.

I currently have a 500 chips sets which is all non-denoms with the followingg breakdown

White - 150
Blue - 200
Red - 100
Black - 50

This will be fine. Just use the white for quarters, blue for dollars, red for $5.
And this is a bit unorthodox but for the sake of maximizing the utilization of your current set for the stakes you play, I would make the blacks $2.

Then in the future when you decide to get a different set or another set as well (which will most likely happen if you’re on this site), you can customize it to exactly how you see fit.

 

[Toaster]

It appears that I also misunderstand! (emphasis on the 'noob' in the title). I assumed that a 4-bet was 4 times the BB. Is that wrong?

Right. As the other guy said, a bet that was 4 times the big blind would be called a 4x bet (or more accurately, a 4x raise.). And for what it’s worth, a 4x raise would be a very standard first raise, preflop, in a cash game. Some noobs may raise 2x, some tournament players (like me) might feel more comfortable with a 3x raise, and some cash grinders might go 5x or 6x - there’s no telling how your game will play, until it does. But typically a 4x raise would be pretty common.
you guys can play however you want, and if you’re all noobs, you might be raising each other quarter by quarter, and that’s fine; you’ll find your own way.
But think about it this way. Suppose the blinds are in, and the first guy to act bets raises to 50 cents, and he gets a caller and the two blinds call as well. Now you’ve got 4 to a flop, with a pot of $2. If somebody likes the flop, you think they’re gonna bet only a quarter, into a $2 pot, playing 4-way? Maybe, but that would be bad poker. He’s more likely to bet a buck. Say he gets a caller.
Now it’s heads up on the turn with a pot of $4. See how this is going, with the use of $1 chips?
Nobody’s telling you the $1 HAS to me your workhorse chip. We’re just saying that playing typical NLHE with .25/.25 blinds, you’re likely to use more $1 chips than any others.

Great explanation. As you describe it, I completely understand why that would be bad poker, but I expect that there might be a lot of that going on. Haha!

 

[DrBill]

It appears that I also misunderstand! (emphasis on the 'noob' in the title). I assumed that a 4-bet was 4 times the BB. Is that wrong?

Right. As the other guy said, a bet that was 4 times the big blind would be called a 4x bet (or more accurately, a 4x raise.). And for what it’s worth, a 4x raise would be a very standard first raise, preflop, in a cash game. Some noobs may raise 2x, some tournament players (like me) might feel more comfortable with a 3x raise, and some cash grinders might go 5x or 6x - there’s no telling how your game will play, until it does. But typically a 4x raise would be pretty common.
you guys can play however you want, and if you’re all noobs, you might be raising each other quarter by quarter, and that’s fine; you’ll find your own way.
But think about it this way. Suppose the blinds are in, and the first guy to act raises to 50 cents, and he gets a caller and the two blinds call as well. Now you’ve got 4 to a flop, with a pot of $2. If somebody likes the flop, you think they’re gonna bet only a quarter, into a $2 pot, playing 4-way? Maybe, but that would be bad poker. He’s more likely to bet a buck. Say he gets a caller.
Now it’s heads up on the turn with a pot of $4. See how this is going, with the use of $1 chips?
Nobody’s telling you the $1 HAS to me your workhorse chip. We’re just saying that playing typical NLHE with .25/.25 blinds, you’re likely to use more $1 chips than any others.

100%

 

[mummel]

I use 200 x $0.25 for 25c/25c. I use 100 x $0.25 for 25c/50c. This works very well for us.

Vast majority of our games are 25c/25c. It’s chilled.

 

[grebe]

Got it! I suppose I am having a hard time imagining that someone who wants to buy in for $25 at the high end is going to be betting $5.

By the river, a $5 bet would be completely reasonable...maybe even a small bet. It is No Limit.

 

[LeLe]

I currently have a 500 chips sets which is all non-denoms with the followingg breakdown

White - 150
Blue - 200
Red - 100
Black - 50

I will make Red 100 as 5c Blue 200 as 25c White 150 as $1 black 50 as $5 giving you over $450 bank just nice for a 5c/10c game with $10 or $20 buyin start small as it seem your group basically are learning stage

I suggesting 5/10c first to start if not your game will just be lot of limping with 25c bet all the way