Poker Blacklist? (2 Viewers)

trigs

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Recently, there's been a few articles about high stakes pros calling out cheaters and complaining how nothing is really being done to them. Here's the most recent article I've read:

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/chance-kornuth-alex-foxen-poker-blacklist-41070.htm

There are some players that are now calling for a collective poker blacklist. What do you guys think about this?

Some issues/questions to consider:
  • What technically constitutes cheating that would result in a blacklist punishment?
  • Who is responsible for judging someone as a cheat? Should there be an official review committee or something along those lines?
  • How much evidence is required to prove cheating has taken place?
  • How long should a player be blacklisted? Should there be a time limit or should it be forever?
  • Should cheating online affect playing live and vice versa?
I do think it is very strange how poker players (more specifically pro players) basically "forgive" known cheaters all the time. I'm under the impression that if any of us caught a cheater in our home game at the very least this person would be banned from all future games, and perhaps at the most they'd be walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.

Basically all other competitions (or sports or whatever) will punish and/or ban cheaters, but in poker it's almost always kept quiet and/or just ignored for some reason.

Some well known pro cheaters (according to others, not me personally) who are still welcome to play and still get invites to poker tournaments to this day:
  • Chino Reem
  • Men Nguyen
  • Chris Ferguson/Howard Lederer
  • Dan Cates
  • Brian Hastings
  • Ali Imsirovic
  • Jake Schindler
*Edited to stipulate that the list of pro cheaters is a list in reference to those players who have been accused of cheating by fellow players.*
 
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upNdown

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Was involved with FullTilt and never rectified with the community. Same with Annie Duke IIRC
That’s not the same as cheating at poker, in my mind.
Same with Chino - as far as Ive heard, the guy is a deadbeat who isnt good at paying back borrowed or staked money, but I’ve never heard of him cheating at the table.

@trigs i don’t know any of these guys nor do I have any firsthand information, and I definitely wouldn't go around calling a guy a cheater unless I did have firsthand knowledge.
 

trigs

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Chris Ferguson is a known cheater?
Ferguson and Lederer were included due to the FullTilt scandal of them ripping off millions of dollars from the poker players on the site. Part of the reason I included them is because of the question of what constitutes cheating in poker and what should be considered blacklist behaviors.
 

trigs

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That’s not the same as cheating at poker, in my mind.
Same with Chino - as far as Ive heard, the guy is a deadbeat who isnt good at paying back borrowed or staked money, but I’ve never heard of him cheating at the table.

@trigs i don’t know any of these guys nor do I have any firsthand information, and I definitely wouldn't go around calling a guy a cheater unless I did have firsthand knowledge.
I will omit the list if it makes you feel better, but it is very easy to google these guys and find plenty of info about how they have been labelled as cheaters in the past. It's not my opinion that they are cheaters - it is multiple others labelling them as known cheaters.
 

upNdown

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I will omit the list if it makes you feel better, but it is very easy to google these guys and find plenty of info about how they have been labelled as cheaters in the past. It's not my opinion that they are cheaters - it is multiple others labelling them as known cheaters.
Don’t do anything on my account.
But here’s a question - are you calling a guy a cheater if he’s known to not repay his debts?
 

trigs

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Was involved with FullTilt and never rectified with the community. Same with Annie Duke IIRC
I probably could have included Annie Duke, but from what I have read, there is no actual true evidence of her ever cheating. There have been accusations though, but it's not like I've spent a lot of time researching it.
 
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trigs

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Don’t do anything on my account.
But here’s a question - are you calling a guy a cheater if he’s known to not repay his debts?
Again, one of the issues is what constitutes cheating in this regard, and what should be considered blacklist behavior. So the question is, do you think not repaying debts is cheating other poker players?

My personal opinion is I'm not 100% sure if I'd consider it "cheating at poker" technically. Would I consider it a blacklist behavior? I personally would not keep inviting a guy back to my home game if he never paid his debts, and I don't think I'd be comfortable playing in someone else's home game with that guy honestly.
 

HaRDHouSeiNC

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Don’t do anything on my account.
But here’s a question - are you calling a guy a cheater if he’s known to not repay his debts?
If I embezzled money from your company and owed lots of money to other players would you give me an open invite to your games ??
 

Rieguy

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There is definitely a distinction to be made between cheating on the felt vs. scamming, shady behavior, defaulting on loans, etc. That said, all of the aforementioned can easily be deemed "blacklist behavior".
 

upNdown

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If I embezzled money from your company and owed lots of money to other players would you give me an open invite to your games ??
My games are cash only - people pay for their chips with cash. At the end of the night, they get cash for their chips. So yeah, I might. I’m really not sure. It’s a fair question.
But I certainly wouldn’t call them a cheater. Scumbag? Maybe. But if I stopped playing poker with scumbags, I guess I couldn’t go play in casinos and cardrooms any more.

Edited to retype this in bold: But if I stopped playing poker with scumbags, I guess I couldn’t go play in casinos and cardrooms any more.
The world of poker is like that cantina bar in the first Star Wars. I’m personally fine trying to navigate through that world, watching my ass and hoping for the best. If you want to have a table full of saints, I guess home games are good for that. But cleaning up the poker world? It sounds like a nice idea but I guess all I can say is good luck with that.
 
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HaRDHouSeiNC

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My games are cash only - people pay for their chips with cash. At the end of the night, they get cash for their chips. So yeah, I might. I’m really not sure. It’s a fair question.
But I certainly wouldn’t call them a cheater. Scumbag? Maybe. But if I stopped playing poker with scumbags, I guess I couldn’t go play in casinos and cardrooms any more.
Those full tilt guys CHEATED people out of alot of their money
 

trigs

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There is definitely a distinction to be made between cheating on the felt vs. scamming, shady behavior, defaulting on loans, etc. That said, all of the aforementioned can easily be deemed "blacklist behavior".
Well, these are exactly the type of distinctions that need to be discussed and made when labelling players as cheaters who deserve to be blacklisted, and I personally don't know where I'd draw the line necessarily depending on the specifics.
 

Highli99

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I’ve never black listed anyone for cheating but I’ve black listed a couple people for being assholes, including a family member sadly.

What constitutes cheating is complicated and dynamic, but kinda like porn you know it when you see it. Thankfully I’ve never seen it at my game or other home games.

In general I am wary of universal lists, insomuch as I anticipate the list keeper will lack governance and due process leading to abuses. Lord knows the “no fly” list was a disaster, and talk to anyone that got banned from pay pal, twitter, etc how easy that was to sort out. No thanks, for me.

I’d welcome any of the players above into my home game, but I doubt they’d want to play the stakes I play.
 

jazzV3

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From that article link in the first post, Alex Foxen's Twitter account leads to a pretty lengthy Bryn Kenney beat-down currently underway.

1650576107217.png


1650576124048.png


 
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Legend5555

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From that article link in the first post, Alex Foxen's Twitter account leads to a pretty lengthy Bryn Kenney beat-down currently underway.

View attachment 899705

View attachment 899706

Anyone that likes watching the high stakes scene, I highly recommend watching Doug's podcast from today and Berkey's (Solve for Why) podcast from today.
 

Anthony Martino

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@Anthony Martino might know a few Cubans who warrant being on the list

View attachment 899896

Oops, wrong Cuban!

Ban ALL Cubans!

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I don't think a poker blacklist will happen though.

Casinos have a blacklist that protects the casino from getting cheated. A poker player being cheated or not honoring gambling debts isn't something they want to insert themselves in the middle of

And while it's nice to think the scumbags out there will receive cheaters justice, the sad fact is guys like Russ Hamilton from the Ultimate Bet superuser scandal are still walking around just fine all these years later
 

upNdown

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Anyone that likes watching the high stakes scene, I highly recommend watching Doug's podcast from today and Berkey's (Solve for Why) podcast from today.
I just got through Doug’s, and I’m heading for Berkey’s, now. But I’ve paused to read some secondary sources too. My bottom line so far - I guess today is the first day since it’s existence that I’ve been glad Americans can’t play on gg poker. Very curious to see what Negreanu, gg’s most visible ambassador, has to say about all this.
 

Pinkdan

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I been watching the story from


It a very interesting podcast done by Matt Berkey and friends
I’ve been following it there too. There are three solve for why episodes now about the cheating
 

Thisfiendis138

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I just got through Doug’s, and I’m heading for Berkey’s, now. But I’ve paused to read some secondary sources too. My bottom line so far - I guess today is the first day since it’s existence that I’ve been glad Americans can’t play on gg poker. Very curious to see what Negreanu, gg’s most visible ambassador, has to say about all this.
He’s busy dumping on Phil Hellmuth on Twitter :love::ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

LeLe

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I’ve been following it there too. There are three solve for why episodes now about the cheating
yup I think it 19 20 22 now, and the story will keep going on

Will prob be good to watch Doug Podcast before 22

I will withdraw all $$ from GGPoker if I had any money in there now, it just like a walking ticking bomb now
 
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