PLO Hand from last night

krafticus

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
5,770
Reaction score
10,811
Location
Ellicott City, MD
Had this hand happen last night at Bo Manor. Note, I am still new to PLO and learning at the tables.

Game is $.25/$.50, switching between PLO and NLHE every orbit.

Hero is sitting on just under $300 to start the hand. Hero understands the basics and some strategy of PLO, but is not always sure how to play certain hands and draws. Hero is UTG +1.

Villain is the most experienced PLO player at the table, and is always trying to get the group to play more often. Villain has very LAG image, and is known to try to push people around when he perceives and weakness. Villain has Hero covered to start the hand, thanks to a player who loved to push stacks with no equity.

Hero is dealt Ac Jc Kh 10h. UTG limps in, and Hero pots to $2.50. 3 players call, so $10 in the pot. I think this part of the hand is pretty straight forward, and most players would raise with this hand.

Flop is Js 10c 7d. Hero sees this as a great flop. villain checks, and hero pots to $10. folds to villain, who re-pots to $40.

Action on Hero? WWYD?

Mark
 

Mr Tree

Straight Flush
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
8,088
Reaction score
12,712
Location
Roswell, GA
Mark, I'm not going to offer advice as I am very similar to yourself. A NLHE player who dabbles in PLO. I just wanted to post that I'd love more PLO strategy threads as I am a novice at the game and find myself pressed into action at meet ups against a range of superior players at the game.
 

10centguitar

Two Pair
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
358
Reaction score
151
Location
Texas
Not a great flop in a multi-way pot.

Villain most likely has a str8 already with a backdoor flush possibilities, or has a wrap.

Id like to see one card off with heros hand, particularly against a lag.

If another club comes off, you have the nut flush draw. A queen the nuts, and of course if you hit a 4 outer (J or 10) you will more often than not have top boat, although it might kill the action.

Best card for you is the Q of clubs on the turn. The J or 10 would IMO kill the action. Unless he has bottom set then ching ching.

It would be tough for villian to 3bet you with top set on a straighty flop, unless youve been bluffing at pots. So more than likely he has a hand like 89Qx
 

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,917
Reaction score
9,094
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
I agree this it not a great flop for Hero. Not great does not mean a bad flop, it is a "silver medal" flop where hero is often second best. These types of boards are where new Omaha players get slaughtered as they evaluate hands - top two pair + gut shot + runner/runner flush seems like a monster but it is merely "OK".

Preflop looks fine. Hero's starting hand is top tier.

Flop should be a check. Really, really is a check. Reverse implied odds are a big part of my thinking. There will be a 9x increase in the pot size because of this decision - Hero is going to be a goat or a hero now. If Hero learns any one thing from this thread, I hope it is knowing how painful a check raise is going to be here. Hero could be at showdown with what he is paying to see the turn now.

Villain check raises. Be mindful that Hero is likely telegraphing his hand by he pre-flop raise if he only raises AAxx hands and broadway hands. This is one reason I would put villain on the straight. He knows that the J and T on the flop are likely to hit Hero's hand - top set, top two, second set, broadway wrap. He expects Hero to call several rounds of betting. I think this is rarely a bluff. Hero has eight outs plus the runner-runner draws. I am putting a lot of faith in hero's table read about villain. If this is a level 0 guy who has played 50 hours of Omaha we need to rethink the future of the hand

I think a call here is acceptable by a whisker, but a fold is a close second. A Hero 3-bet is a huge mistake.

Hang on this is going to be a bumpy ride and perhaps an expensive lesion if the Poker Gods don't deliver.

DrStrange
 

kirchhausen

Flush
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
1,813
Location
Edgewater, Md
Villain is a lagtard that has been opening every PLO hand all night, but has not been three-betting often unless he has a monster. You can rule out the top top hands. Unfortunately for you, this is the kind of flop that is right in Villains range.

I agree with Dr. S that the flop should be a check. If you just call and the j or 10 comes villain likely slows down (unless he has a set to go along with his straight) and you aren't getting any more money out of him, he likely slows down even if a Q comes on the turn. Any non scare card and he is potting again for sure, so I think it is time to cut your losses.
 

Ben

Full House
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
2,531
Reaction score
2,731
Location
"The Sticks"
Preflop is fine. Flop is NEVER a check - must-bet, although you don't have to pot it - $7 would be fine. Don't just assume you're going to get raised every time - you aren't. What to do after LAG raises you is tricky - folding isn't a terrible option, although if it's me I feel like I have a little too much equity to fold here and may be able to rep things that I don't necessarily have later in the hand, so I'd take one off and see what develops. If you aren't comfortable with the idea of putting stacks in on the turn in some marginal situations, folding is probably your best option.
 

MrBo

Two Pair
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
338
Reaction score
262
Location
Maryland
I'm a noob to this too, but agree with all of what the good Dr. said. After your raise pre it's hard for you to rep 89 for the straight here, though everyone's favorite Villain is aware of that, while also being perfectly capable of having that is his range and a check-pot move makes total sense. Also possible are sets or maybe another top two with KQ or Q9. I'd like your hand a lot more if it was something like KQJJ or KQJT, or if we flopped two clubs rather than just one. Also have to consider that there are two cards still to come, but the latter of the two is going to be very expensive if the turn is a blank. I think checking the flop is okay and so is bet-folding, with bet-calling being -EV against a random opponent, but more marginal against this particular Villain.
 

Chippy McChiperson

4 of a Kind
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
5,821
Reaction score
9,878
Location
Halethorpe, Md
Ok , let's say in theory hero calls, and the turn is the 9 of clubs. Douchey McDoucherson pots it ($90). What is our esteemed hero to do?
 

bergs

Full House
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
4,655
Reaction score
5,778
Location
Gilbert, Arizona
I'd flat the flop and jam the turn if the 9c fell. I don't want to see a straightening card, really, because it gets us into "second-best-but-I-had-to-call" land, or as I unaffectionately call it, "Bergville".

Any other club and I'm check-calling. Any J or T and I'm jam-jamming. Non-club brick, nh, gg, nice try, check-fold.
 

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,917
Reaction score
9,094
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
Well lets see - hero is almost certainly behind. Depending on the villain, you can give some chance it is a multi-street bluff, but I will assume the chance of that is zero and offset that by ignoring a couple of RIO risks (like making tens full when the villain has jacks full).

Hero has eight safe flushing outs, :7c: is tainted and might be a trip to "Bergville" Three non club queens make the nut straight. Two jacks and two tens round out hero's outs. 15 outs, 44 unknown cards yields 34% equity in the draws. Hero is getting exactly 2-1 or 33.3%

Hero has a good semibluff opportunity here. Hero's range is just slamming this board - there is every chance that Hero holds the nut plus redraws. As we know, hero doesn't have these hands but he could. And villain should know that Hero's bluffing range is mostly make up of hands like this one - lots of equity for the final draw.

So the question for Hero - does he think this villain could fold a non-nut straight to a pot sized bet? The :9c: is not a good card for a lot of villain's range. Hero holds the nut flush draw and blockers to a hand like top set. Villain could easily hold the bottom straight and a lesser two pair facing an almost all-in "pot" bet from a Hero who might look like a weak hold'em player (meaning villain would be inclined to call) or might look like a tight nut peddler for big bets (in which case villain might fold.)

In short, I am calling or raising depending if we think villain could fold a weaker straight.

DrStrange
 

guinness

Flush
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
Messages
1,252
Reaction score
1,753
Location
Hard Luck Herotown
I'm biased since I have lots of play time with both hero and villain, but alas...

I don't mind pot/call or pot/fold heads up in this situation after the flop. I prefer check/call only if early to act and 3+ in the hand. HU your action is fine.

As played, I'd flat the $40. For the turn I'd check/call any club, J, T. I'd pot any Q and check fold the rest.

I think the correct action is fold to chippy's flop bet, but you will not beat chippy long term by folding in this situation. He already knows your current range rules out 8x9x in this hand. He could very well be representing 89 with nothing more than a wrap draw. He knows he has you crushed with a turn bet if brick falls. I think chippy is considering you with AAxx, KKxx and could be seeing this as a great steal to play. I know these are the spots I bluff in regularly when TAG's pot pre in PLO.
 
Last edited:

grandgnu

A new beginning
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,523
Reaction score
338
Location
Tampa FL
Transitioning from Hold Em to PLO means you can't overvalue two pair or even non-nut sets, this is a game of straights, flushes and full houses. Flop is rainbow, but presents straight possibilities and middle cards are fairly common holdings for players in this game.

Your top two is NOT a monster here. If we call and don't see a Q, J or T on the turn you should be ready to release your hand to further aggression. Although I might be ok with releasing on the flop, since my assumption is we are behind and drawing slim after that raise
 

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,917
Reaction score
9,094
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
TAGs - Take Guinness' comment to heart. " I know these are the spots I bluff in regularly when TAG's pot pre in PLO."

If you are going to be aggressive preflop (and you should), the raising range MUST include middle ranked cards say hands like :8d: :7d: :6s: :5s: or :ts: :9h: :9c: :8h: or even :ad: :2d: :4c: :5h: once in a while. A good PLO player will read your raises like a book and often eat a TAG for lunch. But it doesn't take much to train the LAGs that it isn't 100% safe to bluff. They will still bluff, it just isn't 100% safe.

DrStrange
 

Ben

Full House
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
2,531
Reaction score
2,731
Location
"The Sticks"
If the 9c comes I insta-bet $70 - that A, J, or T in my hand could just as easily be a Q and villain who often holds a now non-nut straight with little redraw (or was bluffing to begin with) can't really continue. Worst case, get it in, run it 2x, chop it up. :D
 

Ben

Full House
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
2,531
Reaction score
2,731
Location
"The Sticks"
Damn, I thought Douchey McDoucherson had position on us. He's OOP? Man, that guy's awful. :p

Crap, no fold equity here. I call. 16 outs to bink is right at what we need for direct pot odds, and can possibly rep set if board pairs the 7 or 9. The way this hand has gone down, villain can't possibly have set.
 

krafticus

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
5,770
Reaction score
10,811
Location
Ellicott City, MD
* results*

Wish I had more time to be on here. Villain is the super douche known as chippy. Hero called the check raise, and turn was the 8c. Chippy the villain leads for 90. I'm sure he has a straight at this point, but now bunches of new outs appear. Hero thinks.....and ....well, yeah i suck at PLO and call.

I think I was supposed to jam, but if I put him on the straight, I think I'm drawing to about 10 outs or so.

River was the 4s and he shoves. I snap fold. Just wanted to know how bad I played it.

Chippy and i talked after the game, but wanted some additional commentary.

Mark

River
 

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,917
Reaction score
9,094
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
Yes it matters a lot if it was the 8 vs the 9. Hero's bluff makes all sorts of sense with the 9, but the 8 claims 9Q as the nut straight and that is not so believable as the QJ in my opinion.

DrStrange
 

bergs

Full House
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
4,655
Reaction score
5,778
Location
Gilbert, Arizona
Since there is no DCS, if you guys have a weekend tourney sometime I may come up.

I've got a credit with Southwest Airlines - why don't we just head down to Maryland Live! and hit a baseball game and the poker room over by the water?

Chippy - PM me your email addy and I'll try to pull an outing together. No sleep no shower all pokahhh
 

krafticus

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
5,770
Reaction score
10,811
Location
Ellicott City, MD
I've got a credit with Southwest Airlines - why don't we just head down to Maryland Live! and hit a baseball game and the poker room over by the water?

Chippy - PM me your email addy and I'll try to pull an outing together. No sleep no shower all pokahhh
Count me in for that too...
 

MikesDad

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
1,406
Reaction score
1,750
Location
Odenton/Crofton, MD
I've got a credit with Southwest Airlines - why don't we just head down to Maryland Live! and hit a baseball game and the poker room over by the water?

Chippy - PM me your email addy and I'll try to pull an outing together. No sleep no shower all pokahhh

I'm in
 

Chippy McChiperson

4 of a Kind
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
5,821
Reaction score
9,878
Location
Halethorpe, Md
I was just on the 2+2 site and this guy was talking about a game from last Saturday that was 5/5/10 with two $25 rocks. I'm assuming that only runs on the weekends but you never know I do live in a land of degens.
 
Top Bottom