PLO cash game with Kings

Rhodeman77

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#1
I’d like some thoughts on this hands preflop action.

The game is $1/2 ($5) bring in PLO. There are options to straddle wither UTG or on the button for either $10 or $15. Most hands have the straddle on from the button button, but sometimes UTG will do it instead.


I’m in the cut off with KKQ6cc ($2300 stack), James (agro Asian) is UTG and has on a $10 straddle ($1500) . Phil (decent casino reg, $800 stack) opens to $25, 3 calls to me, I decide to call, almost nobody is folding preflop (as we are about to see) and with the dangler the hand isn’t super strong. Do you think I should have put in the 3-bet?

The button and blinds all call the $25, then James makes it $200 to go. Every one calls to me. The button has a $10k stack and the blinds also both cover me, but not by much. The rest of the field has at least $1k to $1500 or so behind and are at least decent players, all casino regs.

I’d hate to 4 bet and be up against AAxx, and I hate to call and have the button or blinds put in a 4-bet expecting James to raise his straddle as he usually does, especially with all of the trapped money in the pot now.

Should I raise, call, or fold?

Edit to fix straddle
 
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Rhodeman77

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#5
I would agree with the fold. Your redraws are limited with the dangler 6.
Yea, the 6 hurts the hand a lot. So when does it become a call and or raise? If the 6 were a J or 10 do you call? Do you put in a raise if it is KKQA one suite or is that a call still?
 

mipevi

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#6
I don't think there was any reason to 3bet when the action came to you the first time around, would have also called. After it gets bumped to $200 with several callers, I'm also calling but I'm not thrilled about it. Your hand flops poorly but you are getting somewhat decent odds and have pretty good position, and from your description it seems like James would have 3bet with a range much wider than AAxx (your equity might be much better than expected, which would make folding horrible). Of course playing the flop will be tricky because of the super low SPR and multiple villains, but I came here to gamble! :cool:
 
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#7
Yea, the 6 hurts the hand a lot. So when does it become a call and or raise? If the 6 were a J or 10 do you call? Do you put in a raise if it is KKQA one suite or is that a call still?
Still learning this game, but I think a fold is probably warranted with the dangler and only a single suit.

From a hold'em mindset, you are probably getting the right odds to setmine, but there are going to be very few K high flops in Omaha multiway that I'm happy about a bare naked set. With 2nd best FD and no big wrap draws possible it seems like a pretty speculative hand.

I think I call with a J or T or A in place of the 6.
 
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#8
there are 4 callers of the $200, plus the 3-bettor? What kind of 1-2 game is this!!

I’d probably flat just to see if I smash flop, but with 3 left to act I’d guess that’s a marginal EV play at best. Definitely not 4-betting.
 

Payback

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#9
I'm fine calling here with a suit and K's given the pot size. Seems like the chance of anyone ripping it in are slim so it's alright to be unhappy /call here. I'm not folding KK preflop in Omaha multi way.
 
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#10
I am folding with that much action. I see this hand as being a winner only with these kinds of flops.

KKX
KQQ
AJ10
KXX (where the XX don't make anykind of straight or flush likely).

In other words I don't think a set of Ks is good most of the time in this situation.
 

DrStrange

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#11
Call me a chicken, but I fold at every opportunity. Lots of ways to whiff the flop. Too many ways for this hand to make a second best hand. A "three card hand" is almost always a fold facing a bet. Playing a three card hand with minimal chances to flop the nuts or a draw to the nuts is . . . . . well nuts.

Just say no. The crazy folks will still be there next time Hero has a real hand. As it is, Hero's best case is to see a flop with a low SPR holding a hand that rarely flops well. Second worst case is hero gets potted again. Worst case, Hero gets to the flop unimproved but begins to think a naked pair of kings might be good.

DrStrange
 

ChaosRock

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#14
My view is a little different than what I read in the others posts. I like a 3-bet when it gets to you to 1-Try to isolate a bit (i know, no-fold table) and 2-Get position. So when the action gets to me, I'd make it $150. If 4-betted, I'd fold most likely, depending on the player/position.

As played, I think I like a fold better than a call but can certainly understand seeing the flop.
 

Rhodeman77

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#15
My view is a little different than what I read in the others posts. I like a 3-bet when it gets to you to 1-Try to isolate a bit (i know, no-fold table) and 2-Get position. So when the action gets to me, I'd make it $150. If 4-betted, I'd fold most likely, depending on the player/position.

As played, I think I like a fold better than a call but can certainly understand seeing the flop.
Hero is probably viewed as the tightest player at the table. I rarely 3 bet as I prefer to have smaller pots preflop and want to get the money in on the turn and river with real made hands.

So when I have opened it is rare to get 3 bet, but everyone of them will raise any AAxx hand for sure. And if I do 3 or 4 bet it usually when I am shorter stacked and can either get most or all of my stack in preflop.
 

ChaosRock

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#18
But raising to $150 would put me in the same position pretty much as calling the $200. Nobody is folding and I’m in a big pot with a medium strength hand.

The only plus side is I save $50 if it gets potted and I have to fold.
There's a few advantages other than to save to $50. One, you're taking control of the hand and can represent a better range given the aggression. Two, there's a chance the button folds and you'll have position throughout the hand. It is very difficult for the button to call with air having the chance of the original raiser to 4-bet the pot. If you play the call/call line, it's very likely the BTN will be in the hand as well. You diminish the chance of a 3-bet squeeze form the BTN or Blinds. And there is a better chance other players will fold given you're the tightest player.

Now, if you assume with 100% certainly there will be no folds whatsoever, then I would have folded the KKQ6 to the $25 bet since it is not a great hand to play multi-way anyways. I'd like to at east try and isolate a bit and get position and maybe see two cards. Just the line I would prefer, not saying it is the absolute correct one.
 
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BGinGA

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#19
The button and blinds all call the $25, then James makes it $200 to go. Every one calls to me.
there are 4 callers of the $200, plus the 3-bettor? What kind of 1-2 game is this!!
Exactly. o_O If nobody's ever folding, either the players aren't nearly as good as OP thinks or the stakes are WAY too small for this crowd, and even a straddle isn't fixing it. Better off playing 100/200 Limit Omaha; there'd be much less stack torching going on. And better poker.

Personally, I'd never find myself in this spot. But in the OP's scenario, I agree with the decisions (and reasons) stated by @ChaosRock - since nearly the entire table is going to play this hand, I'm folding to the initial $25 raise, unless I'm in the mood to burn money, in which case I'm three-betting in the $150-$200 range. Never just calling the $25 (Paulo-the-Pro has taught me that calling is almost always wrong :) ).

Facing the $200 3-bet (with likely eight players in the hand seeing a flop, not to mention three left to act/4-bet), I'm folding. Throwing in another $200 with KKQ6 under those circumstances isn't sound poker, it's gambling and hoping to get lucky. Much better ways to spend that $200 from an investment/return perspective. And 4-betting in this spot is just crazy-talk. Again - never just calling, raising is nutzo so fold it is.


Side question: So if the straddle can be $10 or $15 by UTG or the Button, how did the BB end up with it? Slightly confused on this aspect.
 

Rhodeman77

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#20
The game is really a $2/5 game early on. Once the stacks get deep the main table often switches to a $5/10 game and goes to time fee instead of a rake game. Depending on the promotions going on each day kind of determines if stays as the $1/2 ($5) game or the $5/10 game since time fee games aren’t eligible for any promos. For some reason the game was staying as $1/2 (5) yesterday.

Once the stacks get so deep the very stuck players will start straddling like this and potting it preflop looking to get lucky in a big pot such as this. I usually cash out once the game gets to this point since it almost always $100 or more to see a flop.

I usually stick to the feeder tables as they play much more normal preflop since the stacks aren’t nearly as deep and leave once I get called to the main table or if I’m lucky the real main table switches to $5/10 and it is optional to move to it and the last feeder table becomes the new main table.
 

Rhodeman77

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#21
Exactly. o_O If nobody's ever folding, either the players aren't nearly as good as OP thinks or the stakes are WAY too small for this crowd, and even a straddle isn't fixing it. Better off playing 100/200 Limit Omaha; there'd be much less stack torching going on. And better poker.

Personally, I'd never find myself in this spot. But in the OP's scenario, I agree with the decisions (and reasons) stated by @ChaosRock - since nearly the entire table is going to play this hand, I'm folding to the initial $25 raise, unless I'm in the mood to burn money, in which case I'm three-betting in the $150-$200 range. Never just calling the $25 (Paulo-the-Pro has taught me that calling is almost always wrong :) ).

Facing the $200 3-bet (with likely eight players in the hand seeing a flop, not to mention three left to act/4-bet), I'm folding. Throwing in another $200 with KKQ6 under those circumstances isn't sound poker, it's gambling and hoping to get lucky. Much better ways to spend that $200 from an investment/return perspective. And 4-betting in this spot is just crazy-talk. Again - never just calling, raising is nutzo so fold it is.


Side question: So if the straddle can be $10 or $15 by UTG or the Button, how did the BB end up with it? Slightly confused on this aspect.
I have no problem calling the $25 and playing the hand to set mine since the stacks are more than deep enough to make it profitable. Once it is raised to $200 that is a different story.

A raise by hero would probably get some folds, but it is never going to take the pot down or be heads up even, most likely 4-5 ways with the button calling most likely as he seems very sticky preflop and once he calls the cascade of calls seems certain.

Are we ready to know what happened or anyone else care to weigh in?
 
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#22
The game is $1/2 ($5) bring in PLO. There are options to straddle wither UTG or on the button for either $10 or $15.
with ($2300 stack),
I experienced a similar visceral reaction to the thought of playing $1/$2/$15 PLO with a $2300 stack as I experienced when looking at pics in this thread:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...-hour-to-do-this-full-time.18575/#post-335284
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...r-hour-to-do-this-full-time.18575/post-335412

But when I thought of the hand & stacks in dollar amounts I'm used to playing in, I probably would vary between folding the Kings preflop (fearing the raise by the straddler), and calling in this spot. (probably not raising, but wouldn't rule it out.).
 

Rhodeman77

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#23
The rest of the hand isn’t t that exciting. I fold to the $200 bet, button and both blinds call, pot was $1425 as 7 people saw it. I was the only one to fold lol.

Flop makes me want to puke, as it comes K72hh. It checks to Phil (guy that bet the $25 preflop) and he shoves all in for his remaining $600. It folds to James (the $200 raiser) who thinks for a long time but eventually folds flashing a pair of aces including the Ace of hearts, obviously he didn’t have another heart or me makes the call.

Phil says he had 7789hh.

I played until the blinds came back around to me then racked up and left. I don’t like playing this game once it becomes a scratch off lotto ticket preflop.

I was in the game for $2100, out for $2485. Which may have weighed in on my decision to fold. If I was only in for $500 I may have taken a shot at that lotto ticket!
 
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Jimulacrum

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#25
I like playing this hand to set-mine. It's not worth a whole lot more. Flatting the $25 was fine.

When it comes back to you for $200, it's not really worth it anymore. Even if you spike your set and get one of the $1,500 stacks all-in with you after the flop, you're just barely getting enough money back to make it worth the investment, and that's the best possible case. (And of course your set probably won't be a blowout favorite against anyone who can get all the money in.)

Save your $175 for better spots.
 

Kain8

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#26
I like playing this hand to set-mine. It's not worth a whole lot more. Flatting the $25 was fine.

When it comes back to you for $200, it's not really worth it anymore. Even if you spike your set and get one of the $1,500 stacks all-in with you after the flop, you're just barely getting enough money back to make it worth the investment, and that's the best possible case. (And of course your set probably won't be a blowout favorite against anyone who can get all the money in.)

Save your $175 for better spots.
Well said.
 
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