Play quads with me (1 Viewer)

Call or raise the river

  • Call

    Votes: 2 6.7%
  • Raise

    Votes: 28 93.3%

  • Total voters
    30

GenghisKhan

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I'm playing NL Hold'em 25c/50c.
Buy-ins are up to $60. Typical night has $1500 on table, and top 3 guys usually cash out between 300-400 each.

10 handed. Half the table are maniac calling stations.

Blinds 25c/50c, preflop bet is $5 from maniac #1. Maniac #2 calls, tightest player at the table calls (Mcnuts), I call. Everyone else folds. That makes me last to say.

Flop is 9cQd4d. I have 44.

Maniac1 bets $5, maniac 2 calls $5, Mcnuts raises to $10. I call, so do the maniacs.

Turn is a 4!
Maniac 1 bets $10, maniac 2 calls, Mcnuts raises to $20, I call, so do the maniacs.

River is a 3rd diamond, a Jack. There are now straight, flush and full house possibilities. But I have the nuts with quads.

Maniac 1 bets $20, maniac 2 calls $20, Mcnuts raises to $40.

Now it's to me. There's already $220 in the pot. The maniacs will call any amount all night long to try and hit a flush or straight on river. You gotta tell yourself one or both hit it.

Mcnuts only min raises flop/turn if he has top pair and good flush draw. That fact is written in stone.

Maniacs have about another $10 each, Mcnuts another $150+.

Call or raise?
 
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What are the two diamonds on the flop? Would help to give some context.
 
This hand is like heaven. Huge pot, all cards out, we have the nuts, it's multiway, and everybody is betting and raising into us.
 
Well I won't keep you guessing too long. This is how you MISPLAY quads.

I called, because I'm Mcnuts #2, and think if the maniacs are reraised by both tight players at the table they insta-fold. And history says if I call and show weakness (and Mcnuts' reraise is pretty weak too) the maniacs both reraise here. Usually to all-in. 3 or 4 way all-ins are pretty standard at this table, and often with questionable hands.

But this time?
I call, BOTH maniacs fold cause they were bluffing, and Mcnuts had the nut flush AK of diamonds in hand. :vomit: :dead::wtf:

The second the words came out of my mouth I knew that was a monumental fuck up. And I was appropriately scolded for it, lol.

But now next time this happens.....lol
 
The $10 x 2 from the maniacs is as good as already in the pot, the real questions are 1) have I overlooked anything that will take this pot away and 2) how much can I extract from McNuts given the answer to question 1) is false.
Depending on how myopic McNuts is, you can either stack off the rest of McNuts' stack or get him to re-raise you all in.
Same, same.
 
It's hard to raise quads sometimes, but I think you definatley could have raised the flop or the turn to get some more money in there. On the river of course raise. One of those three had to make a hand. I would have raised flop. And jammed the river.
 
Hard to range hands on this board without the ranks. But in general, with less than pot back and in position, jamming quads is super standard, as is the lack of turn aggression. Turn was well played. Flop need more info.
 
Hard to range hands on this board without the ranks. But in general, with less than pot back and in position, jamming quads is super standard, as is the lack of turn aggression. Turn was well played. Flop need more info.

I agree raising on the turn is a bad move. You want that flush to come in for sure.
 
Reraise or jam the river.

Besides that - Good play just calling the turn, what was McNuts trying to do though at that point? Drawing to the nut flush... raising from $10 to $20... not something that strikes me as very tight to try to build the pot on a draw, and not big enough to chase anyone off a draw (which would be weaker) or fold a boat. Right?
 
Added info to original post as to actual cards to add clarity.

I knew the second I said call that it was the wrong move, and knew it would be unanimous here. I just needed to make my shame public lol.

I appreciate the comments about how you would all have played each street, thanks.
 
Reraise or jam the river.

Besides that - Good play just calling the turn, what was McNuts trying to do though at that point? Drawing to the nut flush... raising from $10 to $20... not something that strikes me as very tight to try to build the pot on a draw, and not big enough to chase anyone off a draw (which would be weaker) or fold a boat. Right?

Likely misremembered by OP. Rebuilding hand histories perfectly can be difficult especially with this much action. Obviously it didn’t go exactly as played as the 2nd to act didn’t call a 10% pot bet with a busted straight draw on the river, 4 ways, with 2 players left to act (including flop/turn aggressor) when the river brings in an obvious flush and two straights, and then fold for a 4% of pot raise
 
Likely misremembered by OP. Rebuilding hand histories perfectly can be difficult especially with this much action. Obviously it didn’t go exactly as played as the 2nd to act didn’t call a 10% pot bet with a busted straight draw on the river, 4 ways, with 2 players left to act (including flop/turn aggressor) when the river brings in an obvious flush and two straights, and then fold for a 4% of pot raise


Gotcha, and good point. I think I often tell a replay of a hand different ways.

To the point of the second to act calling tho.... :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: I often see weak players call with missed draws for some reason. It just happened at the table I was playing at Rivers casino on Saturday. I wasn’t in the hand, but a guys to my right called every bet on a draw, including a pretty big bet on the river after he missed. He said ‘we’ll I can’t fold that draw!’
 
I like a raise on the flop. Charge the straight and flush draws to get there. Once you make the nuts on the turn just calling is the right play for sure. River, have raise no matter what!!
 
I agree with everyone saying raise the flop. I normally would have.

Also, I wish I were misremembering. But the action is accurate. I was so focused on my messed up move, Mcnuts saying I lost out on ALL the rest of his chips, and the guys ragging on me, to realise how weird maniac #2 played it. Until you all just pointed it out.

Mind you, these guys are all friends at a home game with money to burn. They frequently play crazy, for the laughs. And I have no idea what the maniacs really had as they didn't show their fold.

I was flabbergasted that neither of them at least called the extra $20 after putting money on the river and there being $240 in the pot after my final $20.

It makes no sense, from maniacs no less. Maybe I have a tell and showed it big time? Shit.

"I CALL! I CALL! :nailbite::nailbite:"
 
Let's see . . . . To start with we jump over a lot of the more interesting moments in the thread.

Preflop, Hero is the fourth and last player to call a largeish pre-flop raise. I presume the plan is to set mine. The stacks seem plenty deep enough and the villains loose enough for this to be a quite profitable line. Score it an A.

There is ~$20 in the pot. On the flop, Hero hits bottom set on a wet board. The original raiser bets 1/4 pot followed by a min-raise bringing the action to hero. At this point we have to wonder just exactly Hero means by "McNuts" Ok, so this guy is tight but is he that passive, only betting / raising with the nuts or near nuts? Should we take the min raise as only sets? This board is really wet - Hero needs to raise unless he is petrified by McNuts. I score this a D- but am willing to hear the argument that Hero should fold vs McNuts because the villian read is just that good.

There is now $100 in the pot. The turn is a one-out miracle. The original raiser bet 1/10th pot followed by a call and another min-raise. There is no reason not to raise. now. The prize is someone's $300 - $400 stack, not a couple of $10 calls. I score Hero's call F- . If the guys want to draw, they will surely pay something more than $10. Read the villain description "Half the table are maniac calling stations". Make it $50 to go if Hero fears scaring off the drawing hands.

When we get to the river, the pot is $180. A lot of the draws come in. Original raiser bets 1/9th pot followed by a call and the third min-raise. There is $260 in the pot when the action get's to hero. Once he matches the $40 there is $300 in the pot. We don't really know the various stack sizes but roughly no one has more than a pot sized bet left in their stacks. I see Hero has only one move left - jam all-in with quads and hope for a call. Again, the prize is a $200 - $300 stack not a couple of $20 calls.

Now I will read the thread and see the rest of the story -=- DrStrange

PS I see most don't agree with my assessment on the turn. Almost everyone want's to flat the micro bet and let the drawing hands draw. So what happens when the river is a total brick and no draws are paying off Hero's quads. A raise to $50 makes a pot of $190 and the villains owing $40 / $40 / $30. What are we to make of maniac calling stations folding for $40 to draw at a $230 pot? Plus there is a solid chance McNuts has over full and will stack off on the river (though that is likely inevitable no matter what line Hero takes, aside from the line he actually took.)
 
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Agree with a lot of @DrStrange here. Unless McNuts is only raising sets on flop, I'd raise flop. If maniacs like to draw they will keep drawing and you get value. Would McNuts not 3bet QQ pre though? If so, then only hand that had you best are the 3 combos of 99.

After we get there on turn, we just have to make a smallish raise of some sort. They will still be getting great odds and you make it nearly impossible for anyone to fold river if they get there. Plus you just lose value from the draws when they miss by not raising turn.

For the most part in NLHE, your main line should be to bet and raise your big hands when stacks are deep, otherwise you can't win all the $$$. This is especially true against players that draw with almost no regard to bet and pot size.

On river, if your info is correct, the maniacs have less than the raise size left. Thus the action can't get reopened by them jamming anyway. So it's actually impossible for you to make more money by calling. Literally impossible. Not to mention that if they have this little left on river and are betting, you generally would expect them to not fold to any raise since the pot if so large. And your primary concern anyway should be winning all the $$$ from McNuts who is representing a hand that will pay you off.
 
I see most don't agree with my assessment on the turn. Almost everyone want's to flat the micro bet and let the drawing hands draw. So what happens when the river is a total brick and no draws are paying off Hero's quads. A raise to $50 makes a pot of $190 and the villains owing $40 / $40 / $30.
Agree with a lot of @DrStrange here.
After we get there on turn, we just have to make a smallish raise of some sort.

For the most part in NLHE, your main line should be to bet and raise your big hands when stacks are deep, otherwise you can't win all the $$$. This is especially true against players that draw with almost no regard to bet and pot size.

Just so we’re on the same page, we are talking about the turn decision, assuming everything up until that point (especially the flop flat) happened as it happened. Going from flatting a flop to 3-betting a turn on a card that helps only our trapped 44 and 99 range is bad poker play. And it’s a spot that is very hard (impossible?) to bluff into that action. No need to get fancy, just flat- same as you would do with your draw heavy range.

And people bet on missed draws, so I’m not that worried of brick, also folks call down light when the river bricks so it’s nice to have more value to balance all your bluffs on those runouts, especially when you don’t need the protection on turn
 
I can't wrap my head around a 1/10th pot bet followed by a 1/10th pot raise turning into some form of barricade that turns calling stations and people drawing into some form of ultra cautious old man coffee. Would we be even more afraid to raise if the turn action went bet $5, raise to $10, reraise to $15 into a $100 pot - making a raise by Hero a "four-bet"?

My rule of thumb is to act as though micro sized donk bets never happened and act as I would if checked to <though sizing might be a bit different >. As we can see in the end, at least one villain was block betting - trying and succeeding at getting to draw for a very low price. Hero can charge those villains a higher price to draw, and should.

I also note that Hero's raise range should be vastly larger than quads or even full houses. Blocking bets mean weakness until proven otherwise. Hero should be raising with top pair type hands on the flop and turn as well.

Bottom line, people with the nuts or near nuts should go for stacks and not settle for crumbs. It is true that the crumbs are easy to collect. It is also true there will be times when going for stacks will cost Hero a few small bets. But winning one stack a fraction of the time is far more profitable than settle for the sure thing by only sweeping up the small bets.

If you only fish for bait fish, you can't catch a whale -=- DrStrange
 
Just so we’re on the same page, we are talking about the turn decision, assuming everything up until that point (especially the flop flat) happened as it happened. Going from flatting a flop to 3-betting a turn on a card that helps only our trapped 44 and 99 range is bad poker play. And it’s a spot that is very hard (impossible?) to bluff into that action. No need to get fancy, just flat- same as you would do with your draw heavy range.

And people bet on missed draws, so I’m not that worried of brick, also folks call down light when the river bricks so it’s nice to have more value to balance all your bluffs on those runouts, especially when you don’t need the protection on turn
I'm more of an advocate for a flop raise than turn. I only think a turn raise works because of the interest shown by the opponents and their tendencies. It's exploitable as hell, but if you know your players and they don't pay attention it could work. I generally would not advocate for a turn raise in a vacuum though.
 

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