How is this allowed at the WSOP? I thought there were penalties for blow ups/cussing, etc? The guy is a legend but he is an ass at the table.
Potty mouth Phil
Potty mouth Phil
Phil Hellmuth WSOP blow up (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter IaHawk
- Start date
tabletalker7
Full House
So Phil Helmuth had a blow up at the WSOP. Is that even news? Doesn't a sports book have an over/under on how long until the Phil Helmuth blow up?
Stufflymcstuff
Flush
Players should have called the floor and demanded a penalty. Would have been even more entertaining to see the fallout.
I wish this had happened. Would have been good tv for sure
Eloe2000
Straight Flush
Count me as a yawn. He probably should have received a penalty for throwing his cards off the table and for threatening to burn down the casino.
But the language thing is a joke. Daniel Negreanu, just a night or two later, dropped as many F-bombs in his drunken late night run in the NLHE $5k. Nobody cares. It’s poker - people get out of line.
I couldn’t care less about the double standard here. His outburst a few years ago, which arguably affected a hand - everybody should be penalized for that, and I appreciate the outrage over that incident.
But language and a hissy fit? I’m not allowed to do that and he is? - Oh well, that’s life.
But the language thing is a joke. Daniel Negreanu, just a night or two later, dropped as many F-bombs in his drunken late night run in the NLHE $5k. Nobody cares. It’s poker - people get out of line.
I couldn’t care less about the double standard here. His outburst a few years ago, which arguably affected a hand - everybody should be penalized for that, and I appreciate the outrage over that incident.
But language and a hissy fit? I’m not allowed to do that and he is? - Oh well, that’s life.
"I cant win because my opponents aren't doing what they're supposed to do."
Translation: I know one way to play, the right way. Adapt to me, because I can't adapt to you.
Translation: I know one way to play, the right way. Adapt to me, because I can't adapt to you.
Yeah, he’s an ass. But that was his 3rd final table in 5 events, so far, this year. So apparently his opponents usually do do what they’re supposed to do?
I would have let him kept going honestly. The first hand that he ranted on started his downward spiral in which he had a commanding chip lead, and was out in short order in 5th when the downswing started with six players (I think)
Stufflymcstuff
Flush
Not really. If you saw how he played these things you’d understand why he goes deep so often.
He registers for literally every wsop event even when they overlap, and punts stacks repeatedly for anything with rebuys to maximize his chance of going deep even if he’ll show a large loss doing it. His motivation isn’t to make money at these small buy in wsop events it’s to juice up his bracelet count for marketing purposes. His bread and butter has always been making casual observers think he’s good at poker, not actually doing well at it.
A lot of these wsop events have 3 rebuys and some unlimited. You really really want to be at his table early. Tbh I think it’s likely that he’s down money at tournament poker despite his major heater early on. But we’ll never know because tournament sites don’t track buyins, and he had very very deep pockets from being the face of absolute poker before the house of cards collapsed and it was revealed to be a scam operation.
ParrotheadMZ
Flush
I don’t understand why he was so
FN mad
FN mad
jpietrella
4 of a Kind
Literally spit out my drink when I pulled this up. Absolutely nailed it.
That's just what I type. If you could just hear the litany of insults I scream at you when you constantly get it in bad and get rewarded for it, you'd start crying and even Helmuth would say to me "You may have crossed the line."
SiouxperStack
Full House
I like that Phil cares as much as he does. He says the shit we all think when we get frustrated with bad luck. Norman Chad is too soft.
jpietrella
4 of a Kind
I think it's one thing to think it and an entirely different thing to say it and/or belittle other players. Dude is supposed to be a world-class champion, maybe act like it occasionally.
This always makes me think of the difference between Derek Jeter and Alex Rodriguez. As a Red Sox fan, I hate both on principle. However, I can't deny the simple fact that Jeter is just a class act. A-Rod can go pound sand and I'd step on his throat if he was bleeding in the street.
SiouxperStack
Full House
You sound like you’re describing Sean Deeb or Daniel Negreanu in their pursuit of WSOP Player of the Year.
No, Phil Hellmuth doesn’t play the WSOP like that. Or at least not in recent years. And certainly not this year.
In fact, it looks like he’s beginning to realize he can’t compete with the wizards in NLHE, so he’s cherry-picking the big $$ (smaller field) mixed events, in pursuit of those bracelets. When he got knocked out of the $10k O8 in 5th, Matusow was urging him to run over and buy a stack for the $10k limit. He told him no, I need to relax and get some sleep. This is not a guy who’s overlapping events and punting stacks - this is a guy who’s focused on playing good poker.
He’s played in only 5 events this year ( out of a possible 19, at the time he registered for that last one) and here are his results:
(But you keep thinking that only casual observers believe he’s good at poker, or that he’s only good at huge fields filled with chumps)
Frogzilla
4 of a Kind
If you are at a wsop table with Phil don’t you kind of want him to go off? For nostalgia
SiouxperStack
Full House
It’d be much better than a photo and a autograph. When my grandfather was a kid he met Moe from the three stooges. My grandpa approached him for an autograph and Moe yelled at him, telling him to “Get the fuck out of here you little shit!”. The story is better than a autograph.
Stufflymcstuff
Flush
if he claims 5 id take him at his word even though wsop/hendon doesn't include lists of entrants. i was being hyperbolic when i said he plays all of them but it's definitely possible he's taking a more relaxed approached lately. that said if you saw him playing over the past 30 years you'd think he's a mad man. his attitude towards slamming out as many as possible is well known.
maybe matusow recommended it because he knows that phil does things like this? he has a history of it, and i've seen it personally where he came to my tables in two separate events (blinding out otherwise) and just starting shoving blind because he was playing in another event. and there've been a variety of debacles over the past several years with him selling action to stakers and then not showing up until several hours into the day, after a large chunk of his stack was blinded off because he was up late the previous night playing and needed to sleep. there's no way to measure it but i would feel pretty confident that he's played more wsop events than anyone in history by a substantial margin. i would also bet he has a significantly higher average number of buyins per tournament.
as for opinions on his ability - i'm not saying that he isn't good at poker. just that he isn't especially good.
but don't take my word for it - pokershares, which i think is the biggest site of it's kind, takes action on a long list of famous players for both live and online tournaments. you can basically buy a piece of their action at a markup. so if they book you at a price (let's say 1.5:1) it means they think you're pretty confident that your edge is less than that, because they of course aren't looking to break even by offering these bets.
https://www.pokershares.com/market/poker
negreanu sells at 1.6, michael mizrachi at 1.5, phil ivey at 1.7 and hellmuth is for sale at the low low price of 1.15
it's very rare that you find someone whose claim to fame is playing poker who sells at lower than 1.4. timex, the guy who runs the site, does not offer good lines. he often charges 20% vig on straight bets to put it into perspective. we can probably surmise that him pricing hellmuth at 1.15 means he thinks he's roughly break even if not a net loser. in the main event, the softest 10k of the year.
this isnt the only market that's priced him as such. i'm actually shocked that they're offering it that low considering how many casuals there are who will buy action on him regardless of how bad the line is - they for sure would have gotten some action at 1.5. but i guess they felt like 1.15 is where they'd get the best balance between volume and margins.
there've been other markets where hellmuth action has been bought/sold and he is generally below par but i dont want to bother digging all that up. let's just say that if you think that hellmuth is a decent winner in these tournaments you can be a very rich man by betting against all the handicappers who believe otherwise.
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I appreciate the perspective. I’ve really only paid attention to the WSOP for 5 years or so. I’ve caught up on a lot, historically, but it’s not the same.
I’m surprised what you say about markup - I feel like the last time I heard, he was still regularly selling action at 1.5. And maybe he still was, a couple of years ago. If he’s only able to sell at 1.15 today, that’s undoubtedly because most of the real poker community thinks he’s a joke. And I’m the context of today’s NLHE high rollers, I’d agree with them for the most part. But I’d happily be a buyer at 1.15 in a lot of events, including the Main.
Like I said earlier, I think he’s figured out that he can still win as a poker player. He just needs to avoid playing NLHE with the GTO wizards. And if all the wizards think he’s a joke - well, when it comes to high roller NLHE tournaments with smaller fields of solver-heads, they’re probably right. But when it comes to everything else poker, they’re probably wrong. As he’s shown so far this month.
Stufflymcstuff
Flush
It depends on the event. For what it’s worth I made a mistake - that line is for another 10k wsop event not the main event.
He’ll likely sell for slightly higher in the main but important to note that the price hes sold for is not an estimate of the price the book thinks he’s worth, it’s the profit maximizing point. If timex believes someone is exactly break even for instance he may book it at 1.1:1. But he also may book it at 1.5:1 if he thinks enough people will pay it. The only thing it says for sure is that he definitely thinks that players roi is lower than his posted markup and probably by at least 10-20% if it’s consistent with his vig on other markets. This is why you see the biggest donators in the high stakes community priced at 0.8:1. Why price it at 0.6 if most of the prospective buyers (likely friends and family) will pay 0.8?
He’ll likely sell for slightly higher in the main but important to note that the price hes sold for is not an estimate of the price the book thinks he’s worth, it’s the profit maximizing point. If timex believes someone is exactly break even for instance he may book it at 1.1:1. But he also may book it at 1.5:1 if he thinks enough people will pay it. The only thing it says for sure is that he definitely thinks that players roi is lower than his posted markup and probably by at least 10-20% if it’s consistent with his vig on other markets. This is why you see the biggest donators in the high stakes community priced at 0.8:1. Why price it at 0.6 if most of the prospective buyers (likely friends and family) will pay 0.8?
I wonder what any of this is worth, though.
You know Phil rarely has more than 50% of himself in anything, right? And I have to believe that he’s selling most of his action outside of these action-selling sites. So, if Timex or whoever aren’t actually selling (or, therefore, pricing) much of his action, then do those numbers have any significance at all?
And look at the betting lines on him. In that pokergo heads up thing, where he beat antonio 3 in a row, then beat Daniel in their first match, I think at one point, Daniel was a 3:1 favorite for the second match, which is crazy, because that format is almost a flip. I think 2.5:1 was like a standard price for all three matches with Daniel. And Phil won all of those too.
I don’t want to put too much significance on Phil’s 7 win streak in that format, because like I said, it’s essentially a flip. But the fact that it IS essentially a flip and still the odds were so high against him, and then he won them all, doesn’t that suggest that the poker public’s perception of him could be wrong?
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