Tourney Penalize Starting Stacks for Late Arrival? (2 Viewers)

[upNdown]

FWIW, my favorite card room recently instituted a high hand bonus in most of their tournaments, that only runs for the first few levels. I’m not sure if that’s an attempt to incentivize timely arrivals, but it certainly could be.
And now that I think about it, that would be my preferred solution - rake 5% out of every buy-in for a high hand bonus that only lasts for a round or two. If you show up late, that’s a bonus you’re paying into, that you have no chance to win. But either way, you’ll still get as many chips as everybody else.

 

[abby99]

I am slightly in favor of bonuses over penalties. However, I really dislike putting stacks at empty seats and blinding them off. I hadn't given it much thought until I was seated immediately to the left of an absent player in a long-ago Poker Stars tournament.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I understand the reason your players hated it. But my experience was exactly the opposite. I added a 10% on time bonus this year and after 8 games, only twice did someone not get the bonus. It's a Saturday game, I imagine I'd be lynched if I tried this on a weeknight with Dallas traffic

Sure, and my original comment was not meant to discourage hosts from using a bonus/penalty if it works for their game. I only wanted to share my experience as a warning that it may not go over well with some groups.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I am slightly in favor of bonuses over penalties. However, I really dislike putting stacks at empty seats and blinding them off. I hadn't given it much thought until I was seated immediately to the left of an absent player in a long-ago Poker Stars tournament.

Before we started the early arrival bonus, we used to put stacks out for players that texted they were on their way. But we stopped doing it because it created so many mis-deals when the dealers forgot deal to the stacks at the empty seats. The straw that broke the camel's back was the night we had two stacks at empty seats next to each other on the same table. After several mis-deals and many complaints from the players at the table, we decided to change. We started giving a late arriving player a full starting stack and requiring them to post a big blind when they sit down.

Empty seats also give an advantage to players that are smart enough to open-raise when the empty is seat in or near the blinds.

Most everyone prefers giving a full stack to the late player, except for maybe one or two players that think the late player is somehow getting an advantage by getting a full stack. But IMO, they don't get an advantage since they get fewer big blinds when they start due to the levels having increased. It is self-adjusting.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Most everyone prefers giving a full stack to the late player, except for maybe one or two players that think the late player is somehow getting an advantage by getting a full stack. But IMO, they don't get an advantage since they get fewer big blinds when they start due to the levels having increased. It is self-adjusting.

The only time late arrivals get an advantage, is when there is a league-based point structure that awards a different amount of points to every player. Imagine being 3 points from locking up the points championship, and 1sy KO gets 1 point, 2nd gets 2 points, etc. Suddenly, it becomes advantageous to show up as late as possible. If those players are eliminated before you show up, you assure your victory just by waiting them out.

However, to penalize the late player chip stack is the wrong solution to a fix very poor point system.

 

[upNdown]

Here’s another solution I could live with. Have a small, proportionate add-on that’s only available to the early birds.
So if you’re running a $50, T10,000 tourney, allow the people who show up early to buy an extra 1,000 chips for an extra 5 bucks.

 

[BGinGA]

I really dislike putting stacks at empty seats and blinding them off.

we stopped doing it because it created so many mis-deals when the dealers forgot deal to the stacks at the empty seats.

Empty seats also give an advantage to players that are smart enough to open-raise when the empty is seat in or near the blinds.

That's why empty-seat stacks are not dealt cards in our tournaments (a "reserved'" button is placed in front of the stack as a reminder). Blinds are removed (and taken out of play) as the dealer button passes the seat.

End result: no misdeals, all stacks pay blinds as appropriate, and nobody gains a positional advantage due to empty-seat stacks. Play is not affected whatsoever.

 

[Kyle]

TDA rule:


If late arrivals are an issue, offer a bonus to early arrivals. Usually 15 minutes before kickoff. While it may be semantics between "penalty" for arriving late, and "bonus" for arriving early, assholes penalize players for taking care of their kids/finishing a work shift/going to church (I had that one). Awesome hosts give a bonus.

Which do you want to be?

That's what I do. Shit.

 

[ChaosRock]

That's why empty-seat stacks are not dealt cards in our tournaments (a "reserved'" button is placed in front of the stack as a reminder). Blinds are removed (and taken out of play) as the dealer button passes the seat.

End result: no misdeals, all stacks pay blinds as appropriate, and nobody gains a positional advantage due to empty-seat stacks. Play is not affected whatsoever.

I assume the absent player also has the Button once per orbit? If yes, then it’s a huge advantage to the player to the right of the absent player. He’s the effective Button twice per orbit, which is huge!

 

[BGinGA]

I assume the absent player also has the Button once per orbit? If yes, then it’s a huge advantage to the player to the right of the absent player. He’s the effective Buttom twice per orbit, which is huge!

Absent player posts no blinds, doesn't get cards, and doesn't get the dealer button. Blinds are pulled as the button ~passes~ the seat. No advantage to anybody, present or not.

 

[upNdown]

That's why empty-seat stacks are not dealt cards in our tournaments (a "reserved'" button is placed in front of the stack as a reminder). Blinds are removed (and taken out of play) as the dealer button passes the seat.

End result: no misdeals, all stacks pay blinds as appropriate, and nobody gains a positional advantage due to empty-seat stacks. Play is not affected whatsoever.

I’m surprised to hear you’re paying early bonuses AND blinding off late arrivals. I can understand the early bonus (even if I don’t love it) but what’s your thinking behind blinding off late stacks, instead of just selling them a full one (which would be easier, and seems to be the industry standard?)

 

[BGinGA]

what’s your thinking behind blinding off late stacks, instead of just selling them a full one?

Just because a player is absent shouldn't present him/her with an advantage of not having to pay blinds like everybody else at the table. That is fair for everybody.

We also don't allow unannounced walk-ins, unless they are there before starting time and there is sufficient room to accommodate them. All players are pre-registered with a guaranteed seat, and we only set out stacks for those we know are coming (and are apparently going to be late, if not there at starting time). Unannounced players who show up after starting time are typically refused entry. If allowed to play (space permitting), they receive a starting stack with the appropriate missed blinds removed (reference first sentence in paragraph above).

The on-time bonus is merely a tool to assist in getting people in their seats by the appointed starting time. In that regard, it works very well.... and better than any other approach I've tried.

 

[Mojo1312]

I’m surprised to hear you’re paying early bonuses AND blinding off late arrivals. I can understand the early bonus (even if I don’t love it) but what’s your thinking behind blinding off late stacks, instead of just selling them a full one (which would be easier, and seems to be the industry standard?)

The other solution is to reward each player a 500 chip when someone shows up late without having informed the host beforehand. That way, you are only penalizing players for their lack of courtesy.

 

[Poker Zombie]

ust because a player is absent shouldn't present him/her with an advantage of not having to pay blinds like everybody else at the table. That is fair for everybody.

The TDA disagrees. As someone who knows TDA rules better than most, you already know that though.

 

[ChaosRock]

Absent player posts no blinds, doesn't get cards, and doesn't get the dealer button. Blinds are pulled as the button ~passes~ the seat. No advantage to anybody, present or not.

Gotcha... That makes sense...

So if I understood it correctly, when Absent Player (AB) is the Big Blind, that blind is taken from his stack and the player to his left (AB+1) posts the real big blind, right?

What happens if AB arrives at the table right after the hand in which he was small blind (AP+1 posted the real SM and AP+2 posted the real BB)? He cannot be the Button since the players on his left already posted the blinds the hand before. So he enters the game when he is HJ?

 

[fieldsy]

We play T10,000 tournaments, and everyone who is in their seat when we start play gets a T500 chip as a bonus. But we don't blind down late arrivals. In part it's because we play with rebuys, and I have a hard time justifying giving a busted player a full starting stack while someone who hasn't played a hand gets a shorter stack. But also, there are somewhat competing interests to balance. On one hand, I want to encourage players to show up on time (hence the bonus), but on the other hand I don't want to discourage people from coming at all if they know they are going to be late. My group plays on a weeknight, after work, and I wouldn't really want anyone who is running late because of ordinary obligations to think "oh, what's the point, I don't want to show up and play with a short stack."

 

[BGinGA]

Gotcha... That makes sense...

So if I understood it correctly, when Absent Player (AB) is the Big Blind, that blind is taken from his stack and the player to his left (AB+1) posts the real big blind, right?

What happens if AB arrives at the table right after the hand in which he was small blind (AP+1 posted the real SM and AP+2 posted the real BB)? He cannot be the Button since the players on his left already posted the blinds the hand before. So he enters the game when he is HJ?

Correct on all counts.

 

[pltrgyst]

That's why empty-seat stacks are not dealt cards in our tournaments (a "reserved'" button is placed in front of the stack as a reminder). Blinds are removed (and taken out of play) as the dealer button passes the seat.

End result: no misdeals, all stacks pay blinds as appropriate, and nobody gains a positional advantage due to empty-seat stacks. Play is not affected whatsoever.

This is the practice at most casino tournaments I've played in Vegas and AC as well as BARGE tournaments.

 

[BGinGA]

The TDA disagrees. As someone who knows TDA rules better than most, you already know that though.

Yep, and the TDA rules are wrong, when it comes to fairness. It's just easier to do it that way.

No way is it fair for a present player to pay the sb and bb three times while folding 30 hands, and then a new guy shows up and gets a 100% intact stack, having missed the same thirty hands without equal payment of blinds.

If you are allowing late registration to an event -- often many levels deep into it -- that's totally different (still unfair in my view, but I understand the underlying intent to get as many entries as possible). But for a small home tournament with a fixed number of entry spots, being late should not incur a penalty, nor should it come with any advantages (like not having to pay appropriate missed blinds).

 

[upNdown]

Yep, and the TDA rules are wrong, when it comes to fairness. It's just easier to do it that way.

No way is it fair for a present player to pay the sb and bb three times while folding 30 hands, and then a new guy shows up and gets a 100% intact stack, having missed the same thirty hands without equal payment of blinds.

If you are allowing late registration to an event -- often many levels deep into it -- that's totally different (still unfair in my view, but I understand the underlying intent to get as many entries as possible). But for a small home tournament with a fixed number of entry spots, being late should not incur a penalty, nor should it come with any advantages (like not having to pay appropriate missed blinds).

Counter-argument, if you’re folding 30 hands without stealing the blinds a couple of times, you’re not doing it right.
Those 30 hands represent 30 opportunities- that’s worth something. That’s the trade-off - give the late guy a full stack because he’s missed those opportunities. And if he’s missed 30 hands, he’s going to start out paying 3rd, 4th, or 5th level blinds in most formats.
I don’t this he’s at an advantage.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The blind is there to put money into the pot. A player that is not in the game cannot win nor lose the pot, so it would appear to me that paying for something you cannot possibly get isn't fair.

 

[BGinGA]

he’s missed those opportunities.

paying for something you cannot possibly get isn't fair.

Simple solution -- be on time.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Simple solution -- be on time.

Big words coming from a guy that has experienced Atlanta traffic.

Mind you, I hate the idea of late players. It is a nuisance to the host, who is juggling chainsaws at the start of a well run tournament with buy-ins, table balancing, record keeping, and trying to play.

I would first point out to my "guest" that running late is terribly inconvenient. A player that consistently ran late for no good reason would probably drop off the invite list for being disrespectful to the host.

But as long as they were on the list, they would get a full stack.

 

[Gobbs]

Yeah, I don't even award points for attendance -- ya gotta earn them via performance.

To add on to this...

People's opinions vary widely and things can get quite contentious when a point system determines who has a seat at a League Championship Tournament. Some believe attendance (and early arrival) should count for something, others believe it should be all about performance. Personally, I believe if somebody can show up 5 less times than me (and late every tournament) and still get more points than me, that person belongs in the Championship before I do. Others just have a hard time seeing people who didn't play much get a freeroll at everybody's contributions to the Championship prize pool.

Many, many, many years ago, in the infancy of his points system, I thought @BGinGA came up with a nice solution to this. (I'm sure he's not the only one who has done this, but he's the only one who has done it for leagues in which I've played.) Points are awarded based on performance (and the number of players in each tournament). There are no points for showing up and looking pretty. If, at the end of the season, you have enough points to qualify for the Championship Tournament, you have a seat in the Championship Tournament; HOWEVER, if you didn't play in at least half the tournaments, you do not get a complete freeroll. Instead, you have to pay a fee based on how many tournaments you missed. This is probably better explained with an example.

To make the example easy, let's say it's a 10-tournament season and $10 of every entry fee goes to the Championship Tournament prize pool. Therefore, every player in the Championship Tournament needs to have contributed at least $50 to the prize pool via their entry fees for individual tournaments ($50 = $10 * 1/2 of 10 tournaments). If a player plays in three tournaments (wins two of them) and has enough points to qualify, that player is in; however, instead of it being a freeroll for that player, the player will be assessed a $20 entry fee since he/she only contributed $30 to the prize pool via entry fees.

I think this is a great solution. Everybody is contributing their fair share (or more) to the Championship Prize Pool so that people didn't get their feeling hurt, but it's still based solely on performance.

 

[CraigT78]

People's opinions vary widely

My response to this is always - When you run your home game, you can do it your way.

 

[Gobbs]

My response to this is always - When you run your home game, you can do it your way.

I used to play in a league that had some strange rules and some weird blind levels. When a couple of us mentioned we'd like to see some changes (and many others did, too), the response was basically "You run your league your way, I'll run mine my way."

I stopped playing in the league after that. About a year later, there was no league left for him to run his way.

Yes, sometimes Tournament Directors need to stand firm and say, "This is the way it's going to be - my way or the highway", but that doesn't mean for many issues, a Tournament Director shouldn't listen to all parties, see if there is a compromise or solution, and implement it in the interest of keeping the players happy. Sometimes, it might be a misunderstanding and a better explanation is all that is needed, too.

 

[CraigT78]

I used to play in a league that had some strange rules and some weird blind levels. When a couple of us mentioned we'd like to see some changes (and many others did, too), the response was basically "You run your league your way, I'll run mine my way."

I stopped playing in the league after that. About a year later, there was no league left for him to run his way.

Yes, sometimes Tournament Directors need to stand firm and say, "This is the way it's going to be - my way or the highway", but that doesn't mean for many issues, a Tournament Director shouldn't listen to all parties, see if there is a compromise or solution, and implement it in the interest of keeping the players happy. Sometimes, it might be a misunderstanding and a better explanation is all that is needed, too.

I don't disagree, but poker players will complain about a free blow job, so I find myself deferring to my previous statement.

 

[Poker Zombie]

and some weird blind levels.

Unlike Dave's oh-so-normal 25/75?

 

[JustinInMN]

Players who are not in their seats should still have to pay the blinds. Usually, an orbit at a full ring, self dealt table takes 20 minutes to complete.
Every tournament that I have played in prohibits players from joining in after the first break.

Here are two ways you can address the issue.

1) Players who arrive on time receive 500 bonus chips. 2.) The inverse. Players receive 500 chips when someone unexpectedly shows up late. (Without given prior notice.)

It used to be players were blinded off from the start of events until the Phil Hellmuth's of the world started complaining about it.

I say no penalty!
The industry standard seems to be to give people a full stack whenever they buy in. Why not stick with that?

But it does make sense to me why casinos would go this way and get away from the blind off method. Too many upsides for the house to make this change.

The obvious reason is they figured out by letting players enter multiple times, they make more money. By accommodating players that show up late under the same rules as a re-entry, they make more money. By not requiring players to be registered at the precise minute the tournament starts, they aren't in the awkward position of delaying the start (losing money by locking up dealers when the maximum number of dealers are assigned to the tournament) to accommodate a long line for entrants if the cage is slow. And they can do all of these things without TDs worrying about managing the stacks or dealers pulling blinds.

All of that said home tournaments are different. A casino tournament will never have too few players to start dealing at the scheduled time. A home tournament with tardiness issues might have 4 people show up on time, but not want to deal until two more show up if that consistently takes 10-20 minutes, then players get the idea that the 7pm start really means 7:30pm and that just compounds the issue. So I can see where hosts have an incentive to provide an incentive to stop this start time creep one way or another. I see nothing wrong with using different stack sizes as a means to accomplish this.

Nope. Roughly top 25% get paid, and top 33% get points.

Whoa, two bubbles in your tournaments every night, wicked . I like it.

 

[Lash]

Unless its a freeze out you shouldnt take any blinds from stacks until after cut off. If the player still plans on coming and starts getting stacked off and doesnt show ,they still have to pay their buy in next time i see them.

If you think someone showing up late has an advantage over you, you probably are really bad at poker