Paulson THC textures and rolling edges (1 Viewer)

[Taghkanic]

This is prompted by a recent acquisition of two racks of THC Starburst solids, but is really about more general production questions—namely, what the different textures, permeability and types of rolling edges of LCVs and SCVs mean about their age, composition and provenance.

Here’s some observations about these particular chips which led to my more general questions:

• The mold appears to be LCV (more open, not with the compressed triangle on SCVs).
• The rolling edges are smooth, not grooved.
• The hat and can mold is pressed pretty deep, not as shallow as most other THCs I’ve handled.
• Both racks were sold as mint, and do not appear to have been used: Very sharp edges, no hotstamp wear.
• They are not, however, “chalky” as most mint solids like these tend to be.
• The chips have a palpable surface texture: a visible crosshatch grid, which covers the entire face.
• Swiping them with a wet cloth does not seem to significantly alter the color.
• The surface seems less permeable than I have come to expect with this type of chip. (I’ve yet to try oiling any.)
• Mixed into the racks are a few SCVs of a very close (if not 100% identical) color which do not have the same aggressive surface texture, and they darken right away when they are wetted.

So, the general questions this raised for me are:

1) What does a grooved edge vs. a flat edge indicate about when/how THCs were produced?

2) Are these two types of rolling edge more common to SCVs or LCVs?

3) Does the visible grid and the lack of permeability/color response to moisture tell us anything about when they were made? For example, do leaded vs. unleaded chips react differently?

4) Do these qualities (rolling edges, texture, permeability) indicate at what point in Burt/C&J/Paulson/GPI history they were made, or did all producers of THCs vary them?

P.S.: The guy who sold these to me (a chatty Las Vegas shop owner) claimed that people are buying discontinued chips like this off eBay for the purpose of counterfeiting them. Is he paranoid, or is that really a thing?

 

[WhiteMamba1646]

following

 

[rimmerryan]

Pics or it didn’t happen...

 

[Taghkanic]

Will post pics when I get home

 

[Lemonzest]

Will post pics when I get home

pics or even a short video narrating what you are talking about would be helpful. I am very interested.

I did handle some THC solids a while ago that seemed shiny and not chalky at all. Maybe they were just oiled but they seemed to be a different sort of texture and certainly didn't seem like they would be porous or would absorb anything. They def were not fakes though.

 

[WhiteMamba1646]

my LCV bounty chips feel very different from the rest of the Tournament Havana chips which are SCV. also after oiling they seem to just stay on the chip as for the other's they soak in and absorb into the chip. very interested in the back story with LCV and SCV.

 

[Taghkanic]

my LCV bounty chips feel very different from the rest of the Tournament Havana chips which are SCV. also after oiling they seem to just stay on the chip as for the other's they soak in and absorb into the chip. very interested in the back story with LCV and SCV.

The sound of the chalky SCVs when riffled is deeper than the textured LCVs, which have a “brighter” sound.

The chalky SCVs also feel slightly heavier/more substantial, though their dimensions appear identical (same height when stacked in barrels, same diameter).

FWIW, a post by @BGinGA a while back on an old thread about C&Js said:

Only way to tell apart a THC chip sold by C&J and those sold by Paulson in their early years is by the date it was produced. They were both made by Burt Co. and are otherwise identical.

They are also lighter, slightly thicker, and slightly larger diameter than thc chips later produced by Paulson.

I don’t see a difference in diameter on these, so they probably don’t go back that far.

 

[Taghkanic]

Here are some pics...

Chalky, slightly heavier SCVs, with only a very faint texture:

More slippery, lighter, textured LCVs, possibly with “shiny hats”:

Note: All of these chips have flat (not grooved) rolling edges, and look a little browner in person. 95% sure they are Mauve, per my sample sets.

 

[Taghkanic]

I would also say that the SCVs have a shallow inset where the hotstamp is, whereas the stamps on the LCVs seem to be floating more on the surface with a much smaller or negligible inset.

 

[Taghkanic]

The two chips on the left are SCVs, on the right LCVs. Both had their right sides swabbed with water just before the pic was taken. The more permeable SCVs darkened; the LCVs didn’t.

 

[Taghkanic]

The LCVs have more of the feel of RHCs.

 

[Taghkanic]

Useful post by @gmunny from a while back about the Christy & Jones timeline. Possibly these SCVs are C&Js, or chips produced on their molds by Paulson for some years after they took over?

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/christy-jones.24830/#post-458690

 

[BGinGA]

This is prompted by a recent acquisition of two racks of THC Starburst solids, but is really about more general production questions—namely, what the different textures, permeability and types of rolling edges of LCVs and SCVs mean about their age, composition and provenance.

Here’s some observations about these particular chips which led to my more general questions:

• The mold appears to be LCV (more open, not with the compressed triangle on SCVs).
• The rolling edges are smooth, not grooved.
• The hat and can mold is pressed pretty deep, not as shallow as most other THCs I’ve handled.
• Both racks were sold as mint, and do not appear to have been used: Very sharp edges, no hotstamp wear.
• They are not, however, “chalky” as most mint solids like these tend to be.
• The chips have a palpable surface texture: a visible crosshatch grid, which covers the entire face.
• Swiping them with a wet cloth does not seem to significantly alter the color.
• The surface seems less permeable than I have come to expect with this type of chip. (I’ve yet to try oiling any.)
• Mixed into the racks are a few SCVs of a very close (if not 100% identical) color which do not have the same aggressive surface texture, and they darken right away when they are wetted.

So, the general questions this raised for me are:

1) What does a grooved edge vs. a flat edge indicate about when/how THCs were produced?

2) Are these two types of rolling edge more common to SCVs or LCVs?

3) Does the visible grid and the lack of permeability/color response to moisture tell us anything about when they were made? For example, do leaded vs. unleaded chips react differently?

4) Do these qualities (rolling edges, texture, permeability) indicate at what point in Burt/C&J/Paulson/GPI history they were made, or did all producers of THCs vary them?

P.S.: The guy who sold these to me (a chatty Las Vegas shop owner) claimed that people are buying discontinued chips like this off eBay for the purpose of counterfeiting them. Is he paranoid, or is that really a thing?

1. In general, all chips produced by Burt Co. (including THC/LCV chips made for Christy & Jones or for Paul-Son) had smooth machined rolling edges, while all chips made by Paul-Son had lathe machining marks on the rolling edges.

2. I doubt if any SCV chips ever made have smooth edges, except maybe those chips where it was caused by wear during use. Burt Co. only used the LCV of the THC mold.

3. Probably more due to the specific composition of the two base materials in general (although lead content was one of those differences). Chips produced by Burt Co. used a clay material mix that did not contain lead, and chips produced by Paul-Son were made of an entirely different material, which contained large amounts of lead (up until around 1998 or so).

4. THC LCV mold chips have only been produced by two companies (using two different processes and materials): by Burt Co., who made them for Christy & Jones and later for Paul-Son (after they bought the mold from C&J) using a process/materials that largely remains unchanged through several ownership changes (Burt Co. - ASM - ASM-LV - CPC), and by Paulson (and later under the GPI corporate moniker), which uses a different process (lower temperatures and pressures) and different materials (which have remained basically the same since inception, with changes to remove lead in the late 1990s/early 2000s). Only Paulson/GPI produced SCV mold chips, often mixing mold halves with LCV molds to create LCV/SCV chips (LCV mold markings on one side, SCV mold markings on the opposite side).

Need to do more research, but I thought the starburst hot stamp was Paul-Son owned, so I'd be surprised if any such stamped THC chips were made for C&J.

 

[WhiteMamba1646]

1. In general, all chips produced by Burt Co. (including THC/LCV chips made for Christy & Jones or for Paul-Son) had smooth machined rolling edges, while all chips made by Paul-Son had lathe machining marks on the rolling edges.

2. I doubt if any SCV chips ever made have smooth edges, except maybe those chips where it was caused by wear during use. Burt Co. only used the LCV of the THC mold.

3. Probably more due to the specific composition of the two base materials in general (although lead content was one of those differences). Chips produced by Burt Co. used a clay material mix that did not contain lead, and chips produced by Paul-Son were made of an entirely different material, which contained large amounts of lead (up until around 1998 or so).

4. THC LCV mold chips have only been produced by two companies (using two different processes and materials): by Burt Co., who made them for Christy & Jones and later for Paul-Son (after they bought the mold from C&J) using a process/materials that largely remains unchanged through several ownership changes (Burt Co. - ASM - ASM-LV - CPC), and by Paulson (and later under the GPI corporate moniker), which uses a different process (lower temperatures and pressures) and different materials (which have remained basically the same since inception, with changes to remove lead in the late 1990s/early 2000s). Only Paulson/GPI produced SCV mold chips, often mixing mold halves with LCV molds to create LCV/SCV chips (LCV mold markings on one side, SCV mold markings on the opposite side).

Need to do more research, but I thought the starburst hot stamp was Paul-Son owned, so I'd be surprised if any such stamped THC chips were made for C&J.

thats good information. always wondered why my AS $5's had LCV on one side and SCV on the other.

 

[Taghkanic]

Very helpful. All of these appear to have smooth edges, but maybe they just are fainter than I’m used to.

Any thoughts on the texture/permeability thing? The SCVs appear porous, the LCVs act almost as if they were waterproofed. Maybe mintier LCVs have a certain baked-in seal/resistance to moisture until they get worn down with use? (Just speculating now.) In comparison to the SCVs picture above, the LCVs almost handle like a composite.

 

[Taghkanic]

(Note: I will probably hold on to the SCVs and sell the LCVs. I much prefer the feel of the former.)

 

[BGinGA]

Very helpful. All of these appear to have smooth edges, but maybe they just are fainter than I’m used to.

Any thoughts on the texture/permeability thing? The SCVs appear porous, the LCVs act almost as if they were waterproofed. Maybe mintier LCVs have a certain baked-in seal/resistance to moisture until they get worn down with use? (Just speculating now.) In comparison to the SCVs picture above, the LCVs almost handle like a composite.

(Note: I will probably hold on to the SCVs and sell the LCVs. I much prefer the feel of the former.)

Just a guess, but I suspect your LCV chips were made by Burt Co. For sure the SCV chips are Paulson-made. There's your differences, and why.

Another way to tell who made the chips is by color palette. The colors available from each company have not significantly changed in the past 45 years.

 

[ChaosRock]

1. In general, all chips produced by Burt Co. (including THC/LCV chips made for Christy & Jones or for Paul-Son) had smooth machined rolling edges, while all chips made by Paul-Son had lathe machining marks on the rolling edges.

2. I doubt if any SCV chips ever made have smooth edges, except maybe those chips where it was caused by wear during use. Burt Co. only used the LCV of the THC mold.

3. Probably more due to the specific composition of the two base materials in general (although lead content was one of those differences). Chips produced by Burt Co. used a clay material mix that did not contain lead, and chips produced by Paul-Son were made of an entirely different material, which contained large amounts of lead (up until around 1998 or so).

4. THC LCV mold chips have only been produced by two companies (using two different processes and materials): by Burt Co., who made them for Christy & Jones and later for Paul-Son (after they bought the mold from C&J) using a process/materials that largely remains unchanged through several ownership changes (Burt Co. - ASM - ASM-LV - CPC), and by Paulson (and later under the GPI corporate moniker), which uses a different process (lower temperatures and pressures) and different materials (which have remained basically the same since inception, with changes to remove lead in the late 1990s/early 2000s). Only Paulson/GPI produced SCV mold chips, often mixing mold halves with LCV molds to create LCV/SCV chips (LCV mold markings on one side, SCV mold markings on the opposite side).

Need to do more research, but I thought the starburst hot stamp was Paul-Son owned, so I'd be surprised if any such stamped THC chips were made for C&J.

I'm not sure I follow, Dave. Or maybe I'm misreading what you wrote. There's plenty of new GPI chips produced with smooth edges, including all of the Star chips and all (or a great majority) of Starbursts. Even chips like Golden Eagle, which are supposedly older have smooth edges, or as @Taghkanic puts it, faint edges.

I think chips with a very pronounced lathed edges are the minority in the Paulson's line up, and it might be just be from a certain time period.

Again, I'm sure I am misunderstanding your post, so apologies in advance!

 

[Taghkanic]

Another way to tell who made the chips is by color palette. The colors available from each company have not significantly changed in the past 45 years.

Huh... Is there a C&J/Burt color palette here that I’ve missed? Or do you mean the current CPC colors are all inherited from Burt?

(These are a brownish mauve. They look more purple in the pics than in person.)

 

[BGinGA]

the current CPC colors are all inherited from Burt

^ mostly this, with a few exceptions (color changes), plus a few new colors that were introduced during the ASM and CPC era.