PAHWM: WSOPC $250 Hard Rock

Legend5555

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A hand from the recent WSOPC $250, $50k guarantee.

Table is 8 handed. Blinds 100/200/200 BBA

Relevant Villains:

SB:
(24k) Loose passive pre. Only tends to bet/raise with strong hands post. Calls wide post flop regardless of sizing. Only shown down 1 hand where he slow played nut flush on turn, then checked river OOP and his opponent checked back.

BB: (27k) High VPIP, doing a mix of limping, flatting, raising, and 3 betting pre. Has already won two pots off hero, one by 3 betting in position to a large size pre and taking it down (first hand hero had raised, with 86s 6 handed). Another by 3 betting pre, Hero called with 88 and check/folded a bad flop. Not seen much later street post flop play from him. But has showdown some less than premium hands. Was seen open limping K7s from UTG+2 thanks to a showdown.

Hero:
(17.7k) Been fairly straightforward. Has raised 3 pots in 40 mins, called/limped 3 others. Has gotten 3 bet 2 times, won a small pot calling pre and firing a turn with no showdown. Not won any pots he has raised pre.

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Hero?
 
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Moxie Mike

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A hand from the recent WSOPC $250, $50k guarantee.

Table is 8 handed. Blinds 100/200/200 BBA

Relevant Villains:

SB:
(24k) Loose passive pre. Only tends to bet/raise with strong hands post. Calls wide post flop regardless of sizing. Only shown down 1 hand where he slow played nut flush on turn, then checked river OOP and his opponent checked back.

BB: (27k) High VPIP, doing a mix of limping, flatting, raising, and 3 betting pre. Has already won two pots off hero, one by 3 betting in position to a large size pre and taking it down (first hand hero had raised, with 86s 6 handed). Another by 3 betting pre, Hero called with 88 and check/folded a bad flop. Not seen much later street post flop play from him. But has showdown some less than premium hands. Was seen open limping K7s from UTG+2 thanks to a showdown.

Hero:
(17.7k) Been fairly straightforward. Has raised 3 pots in 40 mins, called/limped 3 others. Has gotten 3 bet 2 times, won a small pot calling pre and firing a turn with no showdown. Not won any pots he has raised pre.

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Hero?

Nice write-up with reads. I wish more PAHWM posts were like this.

So obviously, HERO wants action but HERO has the deck locked up having flopped trips and holding the blocker to the nut flush draw. Literally the only hand to fear is pocket 3s.

HERO needs to be for value and to protect against the FDs and pocket pairs in the field that could spike a set on the turn. A bet of 2200 (~60% of the pot) seems appropriate.
 

DrStrange

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No time for a tricky - trappy play. Hero should bet. Let's try 2,500 though I suspect the current standard is more like 1,200 - 1,500.

On a lucky day someone holds the last ten and will stack off, which hero makes easier by c-betting. A check now followed by heavy aggression might let the weaker ten off the hook.

More likely, someone holds a flush draw. No free cards for them either.
 

timinater

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You're blocking the nut flush draw, so apply some pressure, but nothing too crazy. You've got a lock on this hand right now.

I also like something like 2/3rd pot and I'm probably planning to keep applying pressure if a spade falls, because again we've got the nut flush blocker and the board is paired.
 

Kain8

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1583247603176.png


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Ghoti

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Definitely betting out, 2k probably. Even 4 ways that's a pretty good board for you to c-bet if you brick, and hopefully someone will be thinking that and try to pick you off. Losing value and also allowing a free card to the flush draw if you check.
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Given the nature of the table, Hero is not concerned about balanced play. Hero thinks he can go for big value and still get paid.

Hero bets 2500.
Button folds.
SB thinks for 10 secs and calls.
BB pretty quickly calls.
UTG folds.

Pot: 11.2k
Effective stack: 14.5k

Turn: :3s::td::ts::qc:

Checks to Hero.

Hero?
 

upNdown

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I would have bet something like half to 2/3 pot on the flop, thinking it’s easy for draws and small pairs to call you, ranging you on two overs.
On the turn, with a Broadway draw and a flush draw on the board, 3-handed, I’m not one to get greedy, and maybe that’s a leak in my game. But I’m ready to take it down. I’m betting 10k, planning on calling or checking any river that’s not an A or a 10.
 

Moxie Mike

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Continued...

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Given the nature of the table, Hero is not concerned about balanced play. Hero thinks he can go for big value and still get paid.

Hero bets 2500.
Button folds.
SB thinks for 10 secs and calls.
BB pretty quickly calls.
UTG folds.

Pot: 11.2k
Effective stack: 14.5k

Turn: :3s::td::ts::qc:

Checks to Hero.

Hero?

Good turn card - really doesn't change much. It would suck if one of the Villains had Q-10 but if so it's just a cooler. I really don't think either one of them has a 10 in their hand. I suspect SB has a hand like 88 and the BB has a FD.

It's kind of a tricky spot since you'll have a tough decision to make if you bet and get C/Red... at the same time you don't want to give two drawing hands a free card.

The merit to checking is that one of your opponents might bluff the river, which you can snap off without going broke if they turn over 33 or something else that beats you. That said:

I'm betting for value here. Probably 6k or so. If I get C/R jammed on I don't think I can fold here. There's only 4 hands that have HERO beat (33, 10-3, QQ and Q-10) and two of those are very unlikely.
 

JustinInMN

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Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:

Like the action pre just fine in general unless I think UTG has a limp-reraise play in him. I think a limp-along would have been fine too, but I lean raise for the chance to gain the button, fold out the blinds and isolate UTG in position. Especially if UTG is on the passive side, hero will be in position to win a lot of pots getting to heads up.

Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Well huh, I guess none of those things happened, but hero didn't get 3 bet, so I will take that as a good sign, would be nice to catch a piece of the flop though.

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Oh good, hero really caught a good piece here. As hero, I would bet here probably 2500, in a 5-way pot, I just don't like half-pot sizing, I really want to be closer to 65-70% of pot on my bets here. Also, I prefer betting because I am going to bet my ace-high spades in this spot and overpairs as well, so I think it helps to have what is probably the strongest holding hero would ever have with this line on this flop aside from TT in the betting range as well.

Given the nature of the table, Hero is not concerned about balanced play. Hero thinks he can go for big value and still get paid.

Hero bets 2500.
Button folds.
SB thinks for 10 secs and calls.
BB pretty quickly calls.
UTG folds.

Pot: 11.2k
Effective stack: 14.5k

Turn: :3s::td::ts::qc:

Checks to Hero.

Hero?

Given the read, if hero thinks he's getting called wide. I think jamming is right play here. A lot of floating hands either paired the Q or now have a broadway draw. I think here should be confident he can be called by a weaker T here as well. I think that's more than enough to offset the rare occurrences of being shown QT or 33. Spades can call as well, but obviously hero blocks a lot of those holdings with :as:, I wouldn't be surprised if :ks: - Xs or :qs: Xs in play as well.

The only other line meriting consideration is a smaller bet to 4000 which could set up a half-pot shove on a clean river. But it feels that's laying too good a price for draws, flush draws in particular. Especially if a player with a flush draw isn't price sensitive, might as well go for it all here. If the read is hero expects to get paid pretty widely here, play for stacks.

A check-through is a disaster with a lot of weak draws possible. Weak draws love free cards. Also, i think it's easier to get paid here with one card to come. The queen hands in particular could call this turn but get scared by a lot of rivers. Same for the draws, they could call the turn, but can't call much after they miss the river.
 
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timinater

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Jam your pot sized bet.

A bet of 4k and 6k lays the correct price to the draws we are worried about to the tune of 4:1 and 3:1 respectively. Don't do that.
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Given the nature of the table, Hero is not concerned about balanced play. Hero thinks he can go for big value and still get paid.

Hero bets 2500.
Button folds.
SB thinks for 10 secs and calls.
BB pretty quickly calls.
UTG folds.

Pot: 11.2k
Effective stack: 14.5k

Turn: :3s::td::ts::qc:

Checks to Hero.
In the moment, Hero did not calculate pot exactly. But he knew a jam was over pot. Hero thought a jam would just look overly strong and all draws would fold. Given hero's blockers, it seemed unlikely anyone could have a hand that would call a jam that wasn't beating hero unless it was the case T.

So hero decided to bet 6k intending to jam all non-spade rivers. Hero thought potentially earning the extra 6k was worth the risk of letting a spade draw potentially get there. And that the price laid on the river jam would make it enticing for some possible pairs to call when the draws miss.

SB folds fairly quickly.
BB tanks and at one point looks like he is going to jam, but finally settles on a call.

Pot: 23.2k
Effective stack: 8.5k

River: :3s::td::ts::qc::kc:

BB open jams.

Hero?
 

JustinInMN

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It's not great. The K beats hero a couple of ways KT or AJ. Also it's hard to imagine a bluff knowing the pot odds are 4-1.

The things hero can beat are an overvalued KQ and missed spades. However most of the reasonable missed spades mean turning a K or Q with some showdown value into a bluff.

It's actually pretty tough for me to come up with bluffs here and I think this could be a fold unless you think villian is going for value with KQ or turning missed spades into a bluff.

But again, AT is pretty high in hero's distribution here. Maybe that compels the call unless we are reasonably sure villian has fewer bluffs than I listed above.
 

timinater

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If this is a cash game it’s a crying call all day.

Unfortunately you’ve put yourself in a really tough spot on the river here and I don’t like either option of calling or folding. That’s why I advocated for jamming the turn. When you didn’t your opponent was able to turn the tables on you and force you to make the correct decision.
 

JustinInMN

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That’s why I advocated for jamming the turn. When you didn’t your opponent was able to turn the tables on you and force you to make the correct decision.

In fairness jamming the turn probably doesn't save hero if villian had a full house.

I agree in cash, this is an easy call. In tournament hero has to be confident there are a healthy amount of bluffs in villian's range.
 

Moxie Mike

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Continued...

Pot: 23.2k
Effective stack: 8.5k

River: :3s::td::ts::qc::kc:

BB open jams.

Hero?


Well, what makes sense that he would open-jam this river?

HERO's description of the Villain in the OP doesn't indicate whether he appears to be a 'thinking' type of player. Only aggressive. it's difficult to imagine that Villain has given much consideration to HERO's hole cards given the description.

Could the BB hold J9? The only J-9 combo that would make any sense at all is :js::9s:. This is supported by the no-hesitation flop call, and tank on the turn. If I held this exact hand, I would open jam this river for max value.

A-J doesn't really make any sense unless this Villain is just a terrible player. A-K makes a little more sense... decent chance he holds the best hand on the flop so he calls, picks up some outs on the turn and finds a call figuring an Ace, King or Jack is a win.

I don't think he has a 10 here... I don't know what the point would be in waiting until the river to bet trips with that many potential draws. I think you would have heard about it on the turn in one capacity or another.

Q-10 makes no sense now either... why wait for this river to jam - it should be obvious at this point to the BB that HERO likes his hand - no reason to keep slowplaying.

So for me it's down to :js::9s: or :ks::qs:. Maybe :ks::9s: but I don't know why he'd jam in a spot like this since he really can't expect a fold after you've shown so much strength. That's what's weird but these are the only two hands that make sense given the description.

Really can't fold here. I'd call.
 

JustinInMN

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Villain is betting for value. It's either he has kings-up or a straight. One HERO beats, the other he posts a thread to PCF about :cool

Hero doesn't beat a straight

Edit: I see now, hero beats Kings up. So yes is villian thinking enough to know jamming this means he's targeting a ten to fold? Or I suppose villian thinks hero will call with exactly AQ?
 
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Moxie Mike

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Hero doesn't beat a straight

Edit: I see now, hero beats Kings up. So yes is villian thinking enough to know jamming this means he's targeting a ten to fold? Or I suppose villian thinks hero will call with exactly AQ?

That's what's so odd about this river play. A thinking Villain would wonder why the open pair on the board doesn't seem to concern HERO enough to check back the turn after being called in two places on the flop. If I am in the Villain's spot, I'm not necessarily putting HERO on exactly A-10 but AA, KK and QQ have to be a possibility.

Maybe Villain is bad enough to bluff with a bare busted flush draw in this spot... but that seems like kind of a stretch.
 

upNdown

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Villain is betting for value. It's either he has kings-up or a straight. One HERO beats, the other he posts a thread to PCF about :cool
Exactly. He's not open jamming as much as he's betting 8.5k (with 10K behind, to fight another day) to win 32K. After a weak looking turn bet from hero. I know that's the bet I'd make, as villain. I think I'm calling. Ick.
 

JustinInMN

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Maybe Villain is bad enough to bluff with a bare busted flush draw in this spot... but that seems like kind of a stretch.

Reconsidering the pre flop action maybe villian has more spade combos including those under T-hi. Like 98, 97, 87, 86, maybe more. He would have been the third caller and just an utg limp to act. And then villian gets to this spot where 8 hi isn't going to win, but hero can probably have some AK and AQ-type hands as played but might have to lay it down to a shove?
 

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Conclusion...

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Given the nature of the table, Hero is not concerned about balanced play. Hero thinks he can go for big value and still get paid.

Hero bets 2500.
Button folds.
SB thinks for 10 secs and calls.
BB pretty quickly calls.
UTG folds.

Pot: 11.2k
Effective stack: 14.5k

Turn: :3s::td::ts::qc:

Checks to Hero.
In the moment, Hero did not calculate pot exactly. But he knew a jam was over pot. Hero thought a jam would just look overly strong and all draws would fold. Given hero's blockers, it seemed unlikely anyone could have a hand that would call a jam that wasn't beating hero unless it was the case T.

So hero decided to bet 6k intending to jam all non-spade rivers. Hero thought potentially earning the extra 6k was worth the risk of letting a spade draw potentially get there. And that the price laid on the river jam would make it enticing for some possible pairs to call when the draws miss.

SB folds fairly quickly.
BB tanks and at one point looks like he is going to jam, but finally settles on a call.

Pot: 23.2k
Effective stack: 8.5k

River: :3s::td::ts::qc::kc:

BB open jams.

Hero tanks. Hero realizes this can't really be a bluff that often. But the only real value hands that could potentially play this way are KT, :js::9s:, or 33. Given that Hero set up this hand to lay a good river price, and he would rather be playing cash anyway, Hero makes the crying call and loses to :js::9s:.

If Hero couldn't just go play cash, Hero might have made a tough laydown and lived to fight with 40bbs.

Hero proceeds to play cash and book a small loss while his wife goes on to get 13th out of 455 in the tourney. Thus creating a vacation full of needling about how much better she is because Hero only lasted 45 min in the tournament.
 
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upNdown

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Conclusion...

Hero is in CO.
UTG limps. Fold to Hero:
Hero: Raise to 700 with :tc: :as:
Button, SB, BB, UTG all call. 5 players to flop.
Pot: 3700

Flop: :3s::td::ts:

Checks to Hero

Given the nature of the table, Hero is not concerned about balanced play. Hero thinks he can go for big value and still get paid.

Hero bets 2500.
Button folds.
SB thinks for 10 secs and calls.
BB pretty quickly calls.
UTG folds.

Pot: 11.2k
Effective stack: 14.5k

Turn: :3s::td::ts::qc:

Checks to Hero.
In the moment, Hero did not calculate pot exactly. But he knew a jam was over pot. Hero thought a jam would just look overly strong and all draws would fold. Given hero's blockers, it seemed unlikely anyone could have a hand that would call a jam that wasn't beating hero unless it was the case T.

So hero decided to bet 6k intending to jam all non-spade rivers. Hero thought potentially earning the extra 6k was worth the risk of letting a spade draw potentially get there. And that the price laid on the river jam would make it enticing for some possible pairs to call when the draws miss.

SB folds fairly quickly.
BB tanks and at one point looks like he is going to jam, but finally settles on a call.

Pot: 23.2k
Effective stack: 8.5k

River: :3s::td::ts::qc::kc:

BB open jams.

Hero tanks. Hero realizes this can't really be a bluff that often. But the only real value hands that could potentially play this way are KT, :js::9s:, or 33. Given that Hero set up this hand to lay a good river price, and he would rather be playing cash anyway, Hero makes the crying call and loses to :js::9s:.

If Hero couldn't just go play cash, Hero might have made a tough laydown and lived to fight with 40bbs.

Hero proceeds to play cash and book a small loss while his wife goes on to get 13th out of 455 in the tourney. Thus creating a vacation full of needling about how much better she is because Hero only lasted 45 min in the tournament.
Not to be results oriented, but he may very well have called a turn jam anyway, having you covered with an open ender and a flush draw.
 

Legend5555

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Not to be results oriented, but he may very well have called a turn jam anyway, having you covered with an open ender and a flush draw.
Possibly, though tougher to do on a paired board. I think he ultimately wanted to jam turn but knew there was no fold equity. I'm not overly upset with how I played the hand. I chose a greedy line to get more chips and knew the risk. And stack to pot ratio ended up being a little weird because of the 4 callers pre. Choosing between the turn jam and risky non-jam was annoying. I just wasn't sure I could get called by worse by jamming unless it was the case T.
 
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Love the hand history. I have been caught in these situations before. Its a leak in my game that I need to plan out the hand from preflop to river better. This was a great exercise for me to walk through.
 

JustinInMN

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Possibly, though tougher to do on a paired board. I think he ultimately wanted to jam turn but knew there was no fold equity. I'm not overly upset with how I played the hand. I chose a greedy line to get more chips and knew the risk. And stack to pot ratio ended up being a little weird because of the 4 callers pre. Choosing between the turn jam and risky non-jam was annoying. I just wasn't sure I could get called by worse by jamming unless it was the case T.

While I do think the Jam on the turn was the better play, I don't think it cost you the pot. Players with wide suited hands in their range are just unlikely to have the mode to make a considered laydown on a combo draw, and getting 2-1 he'd have to put you on a full house to fold. From villian's perspective, that would mean hero would pretty much have to have exactly QQ or TT. Villian probably wouldn't even consider a possible QT as that would't make a lot of sense as pf raising hand.

I also think you could have been called by floating hands that spiked a Q. If J9 is in villians range here, surely AQ and KQ could be, and maybe even QJ.

What the turn play cost you is the difference in the price of the call when villian misses this draw. Unless you expect villian to bluff misses as much as I suggested in the last post, he gets to save that money on the river when he misses that he surely would have put in the pot on the turn.

As the river play goes, in the moment I probably would have called it off on the river as well if I were being honest, because I really don't like overfolding against loose players. (I would guess when these strat threads come up, I am at least 2-1 on the side of make the crying call in these spots.) But really thinking about it, I see it's actually on the margin given the run out and hero can have AJ, KK, QQ, TT himself on this line. (Maybe not AJ, I think hero should usually take the free river with that holding.) If folding AT here is an overfold, it isn't by much. I think if the next "worse" hand hero can have down the chain is AA that's an easy fold.

That's why strategy threads like this are good, slowing down and analyzing these things gets you in better analysis habits in the heat of live play.
 
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