PAHWM: Small Stakes. Big Pair. Home game. (1 Viewer)

BamaT8ter

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9 handed $.25/.50 NL Hold'em. Home game played online. Players all know each other well and have been playing together for a while.
  • Hero has (I think) reputation as solid, aggressive player. Typically the game's big winner.
  • Villain 1 is solid player riding a heater. Tends to trap. Will play back with air to avoid being bullied.
  • Villain 2 is a LAG monster. Wants to see a lot of flops because he correctly thinks he is an above average player post-flop.
UTG -- Fold
UTG + 1 -- Villain 1 ($152.01) -- Raise to $1.50
UTG + 2 -- Fold
UTG + 3 -- Fold
Lo Jack -- Fold
Hi Jack -- Villain 2 ($72.67) -- Call
Button -- Fold
SB -- Hero ($83.64)-- KcKd -- ?
 

Jimulacrum

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Reraise to $10. Big hand out of position, so it's best to set this up so the post-flop decisions are simpler.

If someone reraises, that's something to think about. Stacks are pretty short to be getting away from KK, so you may just be locked into a shove unless they both shove into you or something. (Even then, it'd be a hard fold.) But I'd expect most cases to involve you taking down the pot or getting called by one or both opponents.

With a raise of $10, you'll either be heads-up in a ~$20 pot (SPR ~3.5) or 3-handed in a ~$30 pot (SPR ~2.4). There will not be much room for you to get away from this hand after the flop. And that's great, because you have a top-two opener, so you should want a controlling amount of money to go in during the first betting round.

Any dry undercard flop is a license to get it all in there. Opponents aren't getting worthwhile odds to chase sets, so if they do it anyway, it's to your benefit (long-term), and running into a set sometimes is just part of life. Only an ace on the flop or a really menacing straight/flush board warrants a fold. Maybe a paired board if the action strongly indicates trips is out.

You're first to act, and you have a LAG at the table, so check most flops that aren't super-wet. If it goes bet-raise or something lousy, reassess. If bet-fold or bet-call, it's shoving time. Consider betting out wet flops, but that does take away your check-raise power position and may leave you with an annoying call-or-fold decision.
 

Kain8

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Raising to $9 and getting both of them to call makes a pot of $27. (Remaining stack of $72)

If we flop an overpair, we can bet 3/4 - whole pot on the flop and only need one caller to make a turn shove rather comfortably.
 

Jimulacrum

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I see a couple folks recommending smaller bet sizes. I think a bigger bet size is called for here, for two main reasons: (1) it denies both players proper stack odds to set-mine with a smaller pair, and (2) Villain 2 is "a LAG monster" who "[w]ants to see a lot of flops."
 

shorticus

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I see a couple folks recommending smaller bet sizes. I think a bigger bet size is called for here, for two main reasons: (1) it denies both players proper stack odds to set-mine with a smaller pair, and (2) Villain 2 is "a LAG monster" who "[w]ants to see a lot of flops."
Don’t we want those players coming along here? We want to punish those mistakes not force them out of the hand.
 

BamaT8ter

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Ok. So I should have three-bet larger is the consensus

UTG -- Fold
UTG + 1 -- Villain 1 ($152.01) -- Raise to $1.50
UTG + 2 -- Fold
UTG + 3 -- Fold
Lo Jack -- Fold
Hi Jack -- Villain 2 ($72.67) -- Call
Button -- Fold
SB -- Hero ($83.64)-- KcKd -- Reraise to $5.00
BB -- Fold
Villain 1 ($150.51) -- Calls
Villain 2 ($71.17) -- Calls

Pot is $15.50
Flop: Jc-4d-3s

Hero ($78.89) -- ?
 
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Jimulacrum

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Don’t we want those players coming along here? We want to punish those mistakes not force them out of the hand.
We want them coming along if they are not getting proper odds to set-mine, because then calling is a mistake (for them).

We want our opponents to make mistakes, and it sounds like the LAG is a prime candidate for just such a mistake here.

If they are getting proper odds, then it's no longer a mistake to call, so we don't want to offer proper odds.
 

BamaT8ter

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Ok. Next action seems pretty straightforward I guess.

UTG -- Fold
UTG + 1 -- Villain 1 ($152.01) -- Raise to $1.50
UTG + 2 -- Fold
UTG + 3 -- Fold
Lo Jack -- Fold
Hi Jack -- Villain 2 ($72.67) -- Call
Button -- Fold
SB -- Hero ($83.64)-- KcKd -- Reraise to $5.00
BB -- Fold
Villain 1 ($150.51) -- Calls
Villain 2 ($71.17) -- Calls

Pot is $15.50
Flop: Jc-4d-3s

Hero ($78.89) — Bets $10
Villain 1 ($150.51) — Raise to $30
Villain 2 ($71.17) — Folds

Pot = $55.50
Hero ($68.89) — ?
 

boltonguy

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V "shouldnt" have AA, AK in range as played but Hero says that V "tends to trap" so maybe we should keep these hands in range.
Without many draws, I think this is either a pocket pair going for value (AA, QQ) or AK/TT hoping you missed the J, dont have an overpair and you will fold to the raise, denying any equity to a hand like AK/AQ. QQ/TT should be afraid of an overpair IMHO but there are more AK combos than overpairs in your range. Could be JJ going for value but I think JJ should just call here vs raising and risking ending the hand now.
I'll call here and evaluate turn.
 

Jimulacrum

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Fold or shove spot.

I say shove. You can't build a pot that's such a substantial percent of your stack, and then fold KK to a single raise that may not indicate anything stronger than top pair. Villain could have a set or AA, but he could also have QQ or any of a large number of Jx combinations (and perhaps a smattering of smaller pairs, and he doesn't believe you have an overpair). Those possibilities together dwarf the short list of hands that beat you.

Further, given the "Tends to trap" part of V1's bio, a set is less likely than the combinatorics would indicate. The flop is totally dry, except for a straight draw that no reasonable preflop 3-bet would hit. This is a Trap House in the Trappist's Cove neighborhood of Traptown, dead middle of Trapper County. Trappers salivate at the idea of flopping a set on a board like this.

Of course, "Tends to trap" could also mean he's more likely than usual to have AA here. But there are 6 AA combos and 9 total set combos, and trapping with sets makes more sense than trapping with AA, so I'm weighing this more in favor of him not trapping in this spot.

And in any case, everything I said above stands regardless of his trapping tendencies. The pot's too big and your hand's too strong to slink away with your tail between your legs. That one raise isn't enough to justify folding KK here, and if you're not folding, shoving is the only move that makes sense.

I'll call here and evaluate turn.
Sorry boltonguy, but this is the worst approach you could possibly take.

As of the flop, Hero has the second-highest available overpair. If Hero calls the raise, the pot will be $75.50, and Hero will have $48.89 (not quite 65% of the pot) left in his stack. What is there to evaluate after that point?

Nothing, really. You should never leave yourself with that little, relative to the pot size, and still consider folding. The flop raise was the last, most meaningful piece of information you're getting about Villain's hand. There's no further action he can take that will define it better than he already has. The only thing you're leaving yourself room for is (a) to get scared by the turn card or (b) to convince yourself that his inevitable, no-brainer shove on the turn means he had you beat on the flop the whole time. Otherwise you have to call.

I could see a case for calling here if and only if Villain is a habitual bluffer who will reliably stack off with a weak hand as long as you remain passive. But then the plan is to flat the raise and check-call regardless of the turn—and it's a decent board for that line, just not the right opponent. (I could also see an argument for calling and then shoving the turn with these stack sizes, though I don't think it's a good play here.)

Calling with any other intention is madness. The flop raise is the pot-commitment threshold. If you'd call the raise on that flop and then give even the slightest consideration to folding on the turn, that's a pretty big leak.
 

Legend5555

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Given the stack depth left and the board texture, I'm playing for it all one way or the other. If I were in position, I could see just calling to either call the jam or jam turn myself since there aren't many scared cards here, just A, J, Q.

But we are OOP and have no guarantee that we get all the money in on the turn. So just jam and hope it's not a set. We just can't go folding KK on this board to a single raise. And we can't really fold many turns given the SPR if we just call. And letting them potentially check back turn by us just calling now would be terrible.

The only thing is that there aren't many draws here can be raising as a bluff. But in a lot of these smaller games, you don't see people raising draws in 3 bet pots anyway. So I'm going to assume villains range is unbalanced toward value, and we beat a decent amount of that value.
 

grebe

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Ok. Next action seems pretty straightforward I guess.

UTG -- Fold
UTG + 1 -- Villain 1 ($152.01) -- Raise to $1.50
UTG + 2 -- Fold
UTG + 3 -- Fold
Lo Jack -- Fold
Hi Jack -- Villain 2 ($72.67) -- Call
Button -- Fold
SB -- Hero ($83.64)-- KcKd -- Reraise to $5.00
BB -- Fold
Villain 1 ($150.51) -- Calls
Villain 2 ($71.17) -- Calls

Pot is $15.50
Flop: Jc-4d-3s

Hero ($78.89) — Bets $10
Villain 1 ($150.51) — Raise to $30
Villain 2 ($71.17) — Folds

Pot = $55.50
Hero ($68.89) — ?
Just jumping in here.
Pre: You need a bigger 3!, especially since this is a "home game" and against the players you have described....however you want at least one call. I like $8-10. Also, we are pretty deep and out of position.
Post: brilliant flop, we like it. Against two opponents, we want to put out a pretty chunky bet here. 2/3 pot is a good start. As played, $10 is fine. We are not ecstatic about getting raised, but we are beating all kinds of his range here. The only hand that should really be in his range that has us beat right now is JJ had we bet bigger preflop....but we let 33 and 44 see the flop for cheap, so I guess he could have all the sets. He could also have AJ-J8 A5-A2. Let him play back at us with the worst of it.

I call the raise, and let him take the lead here on the turn. I am check calling any non Ace on the turn, hopefully he will over value his pair of Jacks. I am ready to call him down to the felt. If he has a set, He's getting my chips.
 

grebe

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I would also say that jamming here is really bad. 2 reasons:
1. This guy is very capable of donking it off if we let him. If we shove here or on the turn before he acts, we let him off the hook by giving him an easy fold.
2. If we shove and he has us beat, it's an easy call for him.

We are ahead of his betting range, but behind his calling range. If he is drawing, it is most likely to a gutshot, which is pretty low odds....no flush draws out there. If he has a pair, he is drawing to no more than 5 outs. (AJ has 5 plus a backdoor gutter). If he has us beat, we are drawing to most likely 2 outs. Not many 2 pair combos out there.

This is an easy call.
 

Legend5555

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I would also say that jamming here is really bad. 2 reasons:
1. This guy is very capable of donking it off if we let him. If we shove here or on the turn before he acts, we let him off the hook by giving him an easy fold.
2. If we shove and he has us beat, it's an easy call for him.

We are ahead of his betting range, but behind his calling range. If he is drawing, it is most likely to a gutshot, which is pretty low odds....no flush draws out there. If he has a pair, he is drawing to no more than 5 outs. (AJ has 5 plus a backdoor gutter). If he has us beat, we are drawing to most likely 2 outs. Not many 2 pair combos out there.

This is an easy call.
We are OOP with only $48 left into $75. Are we folding many turns? What if villain checks back?

I agree that it's hard to get much value here. But being OOP is really handcuffing us. The SPR is very awkward. No matter when we get it in, the hands that beat us are never folding. But I'm not convinced villain folds a J or QQ to a jam here. And they're just aren't many bluffs to be had here. Even 56 would be close to having to call a jam given the SPR.
 

Jimulacrum

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We are OOP with only $48 left into $75. Are we folding many turns? What if villain checks back?

I agree that it's hard to get much value here. But being OOP is really handcuffing us. The SPR is very awkward. No matter when we get it in, the hands that beat us are never folding. But I'm not convinced villain folds a J or QQ to a jam here. And they're just aren't many bluffs to be had here. Even 56 would be close to having to call a jam given the SPR.
Couldn't agree more.

This kind of awkward post-flop spot is one of the main reasons why my preflop recommendation is a slightly oversized 3-bet of $10. More than anything, you want easy post-flop decisions because this spot is awkward enough as it is—out of position against two players who are capable of deceptive plays.
 

upNdown

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We are OOP with only $48 left into $75. Are we folding many turns?
Yeah, that’s where I fall on this one. The only turn card I’d consider folding to is an ace, and even then, I’m not sure it’s a good fold.
Realistically, I’m not folding any turn or River.
Realistically, our hand isn’t improving on the turn or River.
Realistically, my stack is getting in, whether I want it to or not (and again, I’m not sure, but I think I want it to.)
So why not get it in now, when he’s still got some fold equity?
All you can eat!
 

Legend5555

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Couldn't agree more.

This kind of awkward post-flop spot is one of the main reasons why my preflop recommendation is a slightly oversized 3-bet of $10. More than anything, you want easy post-flop decisions because this spot is awkward enough as it is—out of position against two players who are capable of deceptive plays.
I would have made it like $7-8 pre then down bet this super dry flop to like $6. If he raises there to like $18-20, then calling starts to make a lot more sense to me.
 

shorticus

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I would have made it like $7-8 pre then down bet this super dry flop to like $6. If he raises there to like $18-20, then calling starts to make a lot more sense to me.
This is why I advocate for smaller sizing pre. Anytime are playing ”all in poker” we are allowing our villain to play perfect poker. We never want to do that. I’ve lost track of this thread, but Ill catch up shortly.
 

bergs

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Best case he has AJ or got frisky with 56s. I’m guessing it’s 20% AJ, 10% 56s, 10% 34x, 10% AA, 50% sets.
 

upNdown

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I don't know about this "We." Maybe you, personally, would be facing a set every time in this spot, but not everyone pissed on a native burial ground or however you got yourself cursed so that you always run into the worst hand possible.
I feel like AJ is just as likely as a set here. If this villain had been described as a great post-flop player, that would open up many more possibilities. But as described, I think we’re probably looking at AJ or a set
 

bergs

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I don't know about this "We." Maybe you, personally, would be facing a set every time in this spot, but not everyone pissed on a native burial ground or however you got yourself cursed so that you always run into the worst hand possible.

I was trying to provide some solidarity with my BIBB (Brother In Bad Beat). Where’s your empathy, brother?
 
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