PAHWM: QQ in the SB, 1/2NL (1 Viewer)

Schmendr1ck

Schmendr1ck

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This hand happened to me during last night's 1/2NL session, and I'd like some input on how it played out.

Table notes as I recall: I got moved to this table about 30 minutes ago after my previous table broke. Table includes a bad player that I know with about $250 in front, a couple of deepish unknowns, a very drunk gentleman with about $150 and a drink in the cupholder, and a couple of short stacks. Action seems decent and typical for 1/2: multiple players to nearly every flop, lots of limp-calling to almost any raise size, and I've seen one 3-bet limp-called. Stack sizes are approximate.

LP: $100. Silent since I sat down, he's been folding a lot, wearing earbuds and a lovely floral scarf.
MP: $250ish. Played with her at my previous table, she opens big pairs to $20 regardless of action, otherwise limps a lot, opens to $8-10 with the rest of her raising range. Very fit or fold post other then an occasional cbet.
Hero: $270. Arrived 30 minutes ago, down about $40 since arrival after a couple of raises that got called multi-way and whiffed. IIRC, I c-bet one and bailed after action, check-folded the other.

Preflop
MP opens to $10. LP calls. Hero (SB) looks down at QQ - action?

Edit: clarified player info.
 
Last edited:
I am not clear about which villain is which. Just guessing . . . . the second paragraph is for color only, MP is V2 with $350 and , the LP caller is V1 with $100.

I think a stiff raise is proper. I overbet to $50 all day expecting V1 to fold while V2 calls. This yields an SPR of 2. Hero is pot committed on any non-ace flop.

DrStrange

PS and BB is folding because we don't know anything about him.
 
Make it $35 at least, but pumping it to $50 has a lot of merit considering stack sizes like the venerable @DrStrange has suggested.
 
I make it $45-50. You are OOP so should be raising rather large with your 3-bet range.
 
Is this a full table? We only have descriptions for a few players, but it seems implied that there are more.

Anyway, make it $50. I was thinking about $60, so that it's a more reasonable pot size to shove if you get called by both MP and LP. But then I remembered LP only has $100 in chips, so you should make sure it's still a legal raise if he reraises, so you can have all your options.

Ideally: You make it $50, MP calls, LP shoves for $100, you shove for the rest.
 
Easy fold.

Just kidding. I fall right in line with rest. Raise to $45-50 range.
 
I am in a different camp on this one. As big stack, I don't want to commit to pocket queens post-flop against this cast of characters. Also, we don't know how many limpers are left to act and their stack sizes. (Which is likely irrelevant since they are not included in your post.) Is MP the bad player you referenced?
 
Based on MP's sizing tell, you have the best hand here, with the exception of the small percentage of the time that the BB wakes up with KK or AA. Therefore, a raise is in order, and given that we are OOP we need to charge them the max. In game, I'm probably going $50. However, ideal is probably $55, which gives us the option to reraise if MP calls, and LP backraise/jams.

This also sets up the pot to be $167 if both players call or $122 if its HU with about ~$200 effective left on MP. Not great 3 ways, but HU that's a flop bet/turn jam.
 
Payback said:
Based on MP's sizing tell, you have the best hand here, with the exception of the small percentage of the time that the BB wakes up with KK or AA. Therefore, a raise is in order, and given that we are OOP we need to charge them the max. In game, I'm probably going $50. However, ideal is probably $55, which gives us the option to reraise if MP calls, and LP backraise/jams.

This also sets up the pot to be $167 if both players call or $122 if its HU with about ~$200 effective left on MP. Not great 3 ways, but HU that's a flop bet/turn jam.
Click to expand...

Okay. MP calls and LP jams. Then what?
 
Mojo1312 said:
Okay. MP calls and LP jams. Then what?
Click to expand...

Easy rejam. At that point there's $152 in the pot and a jam makes it $220 more to MP. Basically you get it HU vs. LP with MPs dead $ or MP calls $220 more with an inferior hand (we can rule out AA/KK due to sizing tell and the fact they would've passed on an opportunity to 4 bet already). Would be a huge win here. However, I'm guessing that's not what happened.


I'm guessing Chris made is $35 to go and got called in 2 spots and then got an A high flop.
 
Contrary to the consensus here, Hero does go for the 3-bet but way too small.

Preflop
MP opens to $10. LP calls. Hero (SB) looks down at QQ and raises to $30. BB cold calls, MP folds, and LP calls.

BB is sitting on about $350 at the start of this hand. He has shown a tendency to play loose passive pre to see flops, then fit or fold post.

Flop ($100): :9c::7s::3h:
Flop is about as dry as it can be. Hero acts first...?
 
Bomb it. Nobody has nuttin', and you don't want scare cards to show up on the turn, being out of position. $100 seems about right.
 
LP only has $60 left to a pot of $82 only one thing to do here and that's
Screenshot_20191007-000557.png
 
We are cbetting 973 quite a bit, right? Probably nearly every hand (including QQ)? Need to size down in that case, I would go $40.
 
Pot is ~$100. Hero has $240, BB covers, LP has $70.

Hero's table image might matter, though not so much at a casino setting. Hard to see a reason to play game theory optimal vs exploitative poker.

Same thing trying to range BB. Hero has only a dozen hands or so. Lets give BB pairs, big aces and suited stuff. Thing is, BB got proper odds to set mine barely. I fear Hero gets to pay off a set. This might be less true with a better read on BB.

I am considering two lines here.
1) Hero can bet small and see what BB does, leaving room to find a fold. Problem is Hero can't tell JJ/TT vs sets which is roughly the same number of hands. Also a small enough bet encourages BB to float. This line would have Hero bet less than half pot.
2) Hero can decide he is pot committed and bet $70 on the flop followed by a $170 jam on the turn.

I am less inclined to jam $240 into a $100 because it lets BB play the hand closer to optimally. Again, I might with better villain reads. Hero might plausibly take the jam line 100% of the time profitably but I am wondering if this makes the most money.

Let's roll the dice and take a line with variance - bet small. I bet $35 (half of LP stack.) If Hero gets a raise out of BB, he will have to guess what to do or make an "in the moment" table read. If Hero gets a jam from LP, then rejam.

This can go wrong -=- DrStrange
 
I bet $35 as it's what I do with most of my range in a dryish board in a 3 bet pot. Plus this re-opens the betting action to hero if short stack jams for $70. Though if the bigger stack raise, it's a complete guessing game if they are capable of doing that with any set as well as TT and JJ.

The small bet also puts hands like AK and AJ in a tough spot.
 
I think betting small again is a mistake (though not as much of a mistake as reraising so small preflop).

The pot is already significant. There's little benefit to betting small except being able to escape the hand cheaply when behind, which I guess is a strong consideration because we expect this thread to end in tragedy, but really, Hero has QQ on a 9-high flop. Hero's deeper-stacked opponent is a player who cold-calls raises too loosely, and the other player has less than a pot-sized bet left (and just called off almost half of his stack preflop).

This is a textbook overpair-versus-weak-opponents spot. Yes, sometimes you'll be behind, but you shouldn't be looking for the escape hatch before you even put a bet out. Bet $75, planning to shove the turn. The only thing that is likely to change that plan is BB getting aggressive.
 
Jimulacrum said:
I think betting small again is a mistake (though not as much of a mistake as reraising so small preflop).

The pot is already significant. There's little benefit to betting small except being able to escape the hand cheaply when behind, which I guess is a strong consideration because we expect this thread to end in tragedy, but really, Hero has QQ on a 9-high flop. Hero's deeper-stacked opponent is a player who cold-calls raises too loosely, and the other player has less than a pot-sized bet left (and just called off almost half of his stack preflop).

This is a textbook overpair-versus-weak-opponents spot. Yes, sometimes you'll be behind, but you shouldn't be looking for the escape hatch before you even put a bet out. Bet $75, planning to shove the turn. The only thing that is likely to change that plan is BB getting aggressive.
Click to expand...
Do you plan on betting this large with hands like AK or AQ in this spot assuming you 3bet those pre? If not, then a large bet is easily exploitable. The point of a small bet is that it protects your whole range. It also in this spot allows you to get calls from weakish hands like AK, AJ, 88, and maybe 66 that might fold to a larger bet. If you are up against a big hand, the bet size won't matter much as the money will likely get it anyway.

It's not about charging the maximum, it's about getting maximum value from the opponents range. In this case, the larger stack. It's trivial hero is willing to get it in vs. the short stack. So the short stack isn't much of a consideration other than hero bet sizing to not allow a premature closure of the action due to an incomplete raise from the short stack.
 
Casino poker, playing the lowest stakes is not a place where GTO yields better results than full on exploitation. Hero doesn't need to spend much time trying to figure how to fool the observant, skilled player because there are not so many of them at a $1/$2 casino table. < if any tonight >

I can not speak for the other people in this thread, but if I am betting $35 it is to invite weaker hands to continue in the hand not to find a fold on the infrequent occasions the big stack flopped a set. I don't think it is proper to fold a big over-pair here without some solid read - I think Hero is paying off the set.

Hero has lots of options here that are profitable vs the ranges of the villains' hands. All of the lines discussed here will make money. The goal in my mind is not to save ourselves from paying off a big hand, it is to extract value from the times Hero is winning with an over-pair.
 
Enjoying the discussion so far, I'll leave it open a bit longer before posting flop action.
 
DrStrange said:
Casino poker, playing the lowest stakes is not a place where GTO yields better results than full on exploitation. Hero doesn't need to spend much time trying to figure how to fool the observant, skilled player because there are not so many of them at a $1/$2 casino table. < if any tonight >

I can not speak for the other people in this thread, but if I am betting $35 it is to invite weaker hands to continue in the hand not to find a fold on the infrequent occasions the big stack flopped a set. I don't think it is proper to fold a big over-pair here without some solid read - I think Hero is paying off the set.

Hero has lots of options here that are profitable vs the ranges of the villains' hands. All of the lines discussed here will make money. The goal in my mind is not to save ourselves from paying off a big hand, it is to extract value from the times Hero is winning with an over-pair.
Click to expand...
I agree. I generally start with a GTO mindset as I did here. But will expand to exploitable play once I have more info. In this case the $35 just happens to work IMO from a GTO standpoint and exploitable play. It allows hero to raise again if the short stack moves in.
 

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