PAHWM - Pocket Tens at .50/$1 NLHE

Legend5555

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.50/1 NLHE
9 handed
$100 effective

Online home game site.

Most players are loose passive pre with a couple exceptions. Post flop play is all over the place, but tends toward being more aggressive. People aren't afraid to stack off with just TP.

SB is somewhat aggressive. He raises preflop a decent amount of the time. And isn't afraid to c/r TPTK on flop. Saw him play a hand where he just called with AJo in the BB against a $50 stacked pre flop raiser, then c/r JTx flop to $24 in 3 way pot (3x the bet) and called off against the pre flop raiser who jammed with KJ.

No relevant info on other players.

UTG limp
UTG+1 limp
Fold around to...
Hero (HJ) :tc::ts: raise to $5
SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1 all call

Pot $25
Flop::3d::6c::9h:

Checks around to Hero. Play?
 

DrStrange

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Ick, these are such painful situations. SPR of 4. Five way action. Hero would be in fine shape heads up, but now things massively multiway and they aren't so clear.

Let's make a "standard" raise, plus a little on top to discourage floaters. For me that is 65% pot plus a bit or $16+ Let's go with $20. Planning to proceed with caution, but not planning a bet/fold line without a solid villain read.

Hero can easily get into a pot commitment situation. That low SPR hints this might happen. More so with sticky villains.

Cards I hate on the turn? Nines and aces. Not really any card I love on the turn. Even a ten could be a mixed blessing.

Somehow I think this hand is going to hurt. In not on the flop, then on the turn.
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

.50/1 NLHE
9 handed
$100 effective

UTG limp
UTG+1 limp
Fold around to...
Hero (HJ) :tc::ts: raise to $5
SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1 all call

Pot $25
Flop::3d::6c::9h:

Hero bets $10.
SB tanks then calls.
BB folds
UTG raises to $29
UTG+1 folds

Pot $74

Hero?

Hero bets $10 for multiple reasons. Board is fairly dry outside of 45 and 78 straight draws. Dry boards don't require large bets. Villains shouldn't have any overpairs here, but can have overcards, 9s, gutters, open enders, and sets. So a large bet doesn't seem to accomplish much as most pure misses will just fold and any hand that continues outside of sets will likely just call. Plus hero has position and this isn't a spot where when hero is called he can really go for multiple streets of value very easily.

Additionally, the multiway nature of the hand makes it difficult for anyone to call with things worse than TP or open ended because there are so many other players to worry about.

Betting large gets more value from draws and 9s, but makes hero want to vomit when shoved on because realistically no one is likely shoving in a multiway pot without set or a really ballsy open ender. Maybe 69 if someone is really getting frisky pre.

Just betting anything at all into 4 other players as the pre flop raiser sends a pretty big message about hero's hand.
 
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CraigT78

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Is this my site? If so, who is the players?
 

chipsncoffee

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Just making sure my math is correct before we proceed.

Pot: $25
Hero bets $10; pot now $35
UTG raises to $29; pot now $64
Hero owes $19 to win $64?
 

Legend5555

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Is this my site? If so, who is the players?
It was. I don't remember the people off hand. I might be able to remember the screen names if I saw them. But I have a general policy of never revealing villain names when I do these types of posts.
 

chipsncoffee

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Okay, so Hero owes $19 to win $74. I forgot that SB called. Normally, I’d advocate for more aggression, but think about UTG’s range. It could include a lot of hands that we’re doing well against right now, IE: K9, Q9, J9, T9s, plus a lot of hands that are crushing us like 66, 33, maybe 99 if Villain wouldn’t raise that UTG. 45 and 78 are certainly plausible as well.

We will hate most turn cards, but I don’t know that I can advocate a jam here. I also don’t like just calling and allowing SB to tag along for an excellent price. Folding is out.

If I’m in this spot, I’m valuing a shove over a call. We’re either way ahead or way behind, but I sincerely hate a flat-call. Maybe someone else here can tell me why I’m wrong, because this is a truly bizarre spot. :confused
 

DrStrange

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As expected, it hurts. The pot is singing Hero's name. The hundred dollar bill in Hero's pocket is thinking his turn may be coming.

Let's not kid ourselves about "pot odds". This IS the precipice for pot commitment. It isn't really $19 to win $74. Hero's remaining $85 is going in the pot sometime before we are done. And the pot will be $205 after is said and done, assuming the small blind folds.

Loose but passive preflop, aggressive post flop is how Hero sees UTG. Willing to stack off with merely top pair. If this is to be believed, hero is well ahead of the range. Perhaps not as far ahead of the calling range.

If Hero jams, it would be $66 into a $93 pot < $25 preflop + $10 dead from SB + 2 X $29 from Hero & villain = $93 > villain needs 29% equity, close to a fair price for the OESdraws. And I would be remiss to note we don't know about the intentions of the small blind. Could be he wakes up with a huge cold call.

As for that $10 c-bet. In my world, a 40% pot c-bet is often seen as an invitation to either peal a cheap turn card vs Hero's "obvious" whiffed AK or as an opportunity to take advantage of Hero's weakness.

This isn't remotely how new school on line poker works. Where the solvers have pronounced the small c-bet best and not a sign of weakness. But if this is an on-line version of Hero's home game then I think we should assume live poker methods are the ones in play.

I vote jam and hope for victory. Otherwise, unpack that lonely $100 bill and get some new chips.

Maybe this has a happy ending? -=- DrStrange
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

.50/1 NLHE
9 handed
$100 effective

UTG limp
UTG+1 limp
Fold around to...
Hero (HJ) :tc::ts: raise to $5
SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1 all call

Pot $25
Flop::3d::6c::9h:

Hero bets $10.
SB tanks then calls.
BB folds
UTG raises to $29
UTG+1 folds

Pot $74

Hero elects to make a tight and exploitive fold.

Had hero been against just the UTG player, hero would have likely just jammed. But the SB check/calling the bet with 3 players still behind was worrisome. Given prior play, hero thought SB would have been apt to raise TP or say JJ on this flop (had he not 3 bet JJ pre). So it seemed far more likely SB would have a trapped set or a straight draw.

Hero is getting a great price but what's the plan if hero just calls. If SB then jams, hero probably has to fold as it would look really strong as he could not expect the UTG player to be folding. If SB calls then what turn does hero feel good about?

It really came down to all the options feeling like they kind of sucked. Hero is faced with a decision for all the chips right now with 2 players still in the hand and has only committed $15. Tight fold mostly due to the 3 way nature of the situation and the 5 way action in which it's pretty plausible someone hit a set.

After Hero folds...

SB jams
UTG calls

SB had :9d::9s:
UTG had :9c::7c:
 
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Legend5555

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As for that $10 c-bet. In my world, a 40% pot c-bet is often seen as an invitation to either peal a cheap turn card vs Hero's "obvious" whiffed AK or as an opportunity to take advantage of Hero's weakness.

This isn't remotely how new school on line poker works. Where the solvers have pronounced the small c-bet best and not a sign of weakness. But if this is an on-line version of Hero's home game then I think we should assume live poker methods are the ones in play.
I totally get this. But the more GTO play will still be profitable as well, though maybe not maximally. I'd say that in general you'd be happy with opponents spazzing out against the "weak" c-bet thinking it's AK. In reality, not many people are just going to be firing a bet into 4 people even from position with naked AK. So if players think it's hero betting AK, then they are just going to get slaughtered.

Against "peeling" hands, presumably you want them to peel when you have a value hand. If you knew they would peel to a larger bet, then you'd obviously make a larger bet. But when ranges are capable of being very wide as to include overs, mid pairs, etc. Then a smaller bet has a higher expectation of getting value from the whole range.

It's of minor concern that a small bet gives better odds to straight draws since hero has position. Hero can better play trickier cards on later streets.

So, if hero had more info on the players and knew how they would react to certain sizes and for example the fact that UTG would stack of with TP no kicker, then hero could definitely make different plays.
 

Legend5555

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All this being said, I've been getting killed in the game. Had several scenarios like this hand come up. And if it's not this, it's been missing flops as the raiser in multiway action. Missing all the draws. Never flopping sets. Getting pocket pairs counterfeit by the board. Not won a pot worth more than $10 in the last 3 sessions I've played.

Sucks even though I feel like I've been playing well.
 
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DAinPA

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I've been doing a little stalking on these strat threads but haven't jumped in. Y'alls insights are interesting! Quick q for you masterminds: given all the complications hero sees coming if this pot continues to progress, would betting a little more on the flop (most of you suggested around $20 for a c bet I think) like say, a pot-sized bet or slightly over be something to consider to try and snag the pot right there? Or are we making ourselves too susceptible to an early shove or large raise?
 

chipsncoffee

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I've been doing a little stalking on these strat threads but haven't jumped in. Y'alls insights are interesting! Quick q for you masterminds: given all the complications hero sees coming if this pot continues to progress, would betting a little more on the flop (most of you suggested around $20 for a c bet I think) like say, a pot-sized bet or slightly over be something to consider to try and snag the pot right there? Or are we making ourselves too susceptible to an early shove or large raise?

I would certainly advocate for a larger bet post-flop to charge draws and TP hands.
 

Legend5555

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I would certainly advocate for a larger bet post-flop to charge draws and TP hands.
As noted, a lot of people wanted a larger sizing. I have my reasons for the small sizing, even noting that if I knew the players better, I might make a larger sizing.

What is the plan with a larger sizing?
What are we targeting with a larger sizing? What hands fold to $20 vs $10? Do we want them to fold?
What hands call $20 vs $10?
Do we want to be bloating pots with susceptible hands in 5 way action?
 

PlayerADK

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I believe that I would find the fold here as well. I can't imagine someone reraising without the set, especially after a smaller c-bet like that one. I don't enjoy folding here but feel comfortable believing it's the best option in this scenario. Good fold.
 
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