PAHWM - NLHE league tourney (1 Viewer)

[Frogzilla]

This hand from last month features nontrivial decision points at all streets and might make for good strategy discussion.

The league setup is such that all places earn points and the point curve is somewhat flat...ICM is a factor in all levels.

Level 2 in the tourney, still 9 handed, stacks mostly near start stack which is 50 bb at level 2. No ante in play

Villain (35bb) (UTG+1) limps
CO (55bb) limps
Button (55bb) limps
SB (70bb) minraises to 2BB
Hero (45bb) BB looks down at

 

[timinater]

 

[Legend5555]

I can't read. Ignore everything I said.

 

[Beakertwang]

If any of the limpers are likely to re-pop this, I’m folding. If they are most likely to flat call, I don’t mind spending a BB to see a flop.

 

[gkitt80]

If any of the limpers are likely to re-pop this, I’m folding. If they are most likely to flat call, I don’t mind spending a BB to see a flop.

This - likely just folding. I would call if closing the action, not really worried about any of the limpers other than UTG+1 repopping though. Meh, call - its 1BB - who cares if you light it on fire when UTG + 1 repops and you are forced to fold.

EDIT: Also, if you fold now, this post gets super boring, so call and lets see a flop

 

[johnnyesper]

I think this is an easy BB defend. Like @Beakertwang said, if your group tends to open limp premium hands from UTG then this is a fold or Squeeze situation. At this point, not knowing your group, I would call.

 

[Frogzilla]

Onto phase 2. Q9ss is one of my 50 favorite hands, so let’s see some flops. UTG+1 says not so fast

Villain (35bb) (UTG+1) limps
CO (55bb) limps
Button (55bb) limps
SB (70bb) minraises to 2BB
Hero (45bb) BB looks down at
UTG+1 reraises to 8BB
CO, Button, and SB fold
Hero still has

This is a league so we’ve seen this move before from UTG1, and this is never QQ or AK. I don’t think I’d seen it with KK either.

Do we want to square off against a very nutted, but also face up range?

 

[Legend5555]

Out of position getting terrible implied odds, this is an easy fold. You just aren't going to flop good enough often enough.

 

[Beakertwang]

Do we want to square off against a very nutted, but also face up range?

We don’t, but it sounds like you might.

 

[Eriks]

People limpraise?

 

[gkitt80]

People limpraise?

From EP sure - classic move with AA to be cute (or to present that you have AA when you do not)

 

[gkitt80]

I’m folding, moving on to next hand. Out of position, and unless you flop the nuts you are likely check/folding.

Assuming you do call (because why else would you create this thread), nothing short of 2 pair or a super draw (i.e. JsTsXx flop) will I continue with vs. aggression on the flop.

 

[upNdown]

Out of position getting terrible implied odds, this is an easy fold. You just aren't going to flop good enough often enough.

Why are the implied odds terrible? I'd think if he cracks aces, he's probably getting paid big. Is it just because they're shallow?
I guess if this was a cash game or if we were deeper, I wouldm't mind seeing a flop against for-sure AA. But if Im in for 2, with only 43 behind, I'm not sure I want to dump off another 6, against AA.

 

[Eriks]

From EP sure - classic move with AA to be cute (or to present that you have AA when you do not)

I know of the play, I just didn’t think anyone did it anymore.

Easy fold

 

[Legend5555]

Why are the implied odds terrible? I'd think if he cracks aces, he's probably getting paid big. Is it just because they're shallow?
I guess if this was a cash game or if we were deeper, I wouldm't mind seeing a flop against for-sure AA. But if Im in for 2, with only 43 behind, I'm not sure I want to dump off another 6, against AA.

Not deep enough. Calling off almost 20% of our stack pre flop? Are we going to get a flop we feel good going with 20% of the time? And is our opponent always paying us off when we do?

We lose more chips calling and folding flops than we win when we double up.

 

[gkitt80]

I know of the play, I just didn’t think anyone did it anymore.

Easy fold

I tried doing it last night (with AK late in the Weds tournament), and let 3 other people see the flop cheaply (doh! why didn’t I raise/shove PF!), then got stacked on a K87 flop when button flopped bottom 2. Def a risky play, for obvious reasons.

 

[ChaosRock]

Fold to the SB min-raise. As played, fold to the UTG+1 3-bet.

Hero needs 4:1 to either over-flop AA or flop a good draw. He's getting a little over 2:1. Even if Hero flops a draw, he is likely not gonna get a good price to call the flop for it.

 

[DrStrange]

Assume Hero's villain read is right. Pocket aces, face up.

If Hero didn't fold, the preflop pot would be 20bb and effective stacks are 27bb.

Position doesn't matter much at all - good thing for Hero I guess. Not only are villain's aces face up, but villain's stack is effectively all-in in the dark. Pocket aces autoplay themselves in such short stack environments.

Skill doesn't matter either. The aces have a crushing advantage, Hero just has to be lucky. So the only question is, "How is Hero's standing with Lady Luck?"

Hero is risking 6bb to win 74bb [ almost half of which are future chips from Hero's stack ]. I do not see this as an easy fold, it is almost reasonably close. I do think it is a fold, just not easy.

Why fold? Because Hero is getting a poor price to draw should he flop a straight or flush draw. If hero can't draw for stacks, then he has to flop two pair+ or some sort of combo draw. A pretty unlikely flop. And then the hand has to win, no sure thing maybe not even 50-50.

However, Hero's standing with Lady Luck might be so good he can spit on math and win on random chance. I wouldn't do it, but I don't have anything more than an uneasy relationship with the Lady -=- DrStrange

 

[Eriks]

I tried doing it last night (with AK late in the Weds tournament), and let 3 other people see the flop cheaply (doh! why didn’t I raise/shove PF!), then got stacked on a K87 flop when button flopped bottom 2. Def a risky play, for obvious reasons.

Yeah it is, and if you have raise happy players behind it’s better to have them 3-bet your open so you can 4-bet or, if stack sizes allow, perhaps trap, now with a much wider perceived range.

 

[johnnyesper]

However, Hero's standing with Lady Luck might be so good he can spit on math and win on random chance. I wouldn't do it, but I don't have anything more than an uneasy relationship with the Lady -=- DrStrange

She hates me at the moment so under this logic I would fold.

 

[Frogzilla]

I went on to make the call here which is pretty loose. Villain is also shorter than I had realized, so I thought there was a little more implied odds. Anyways, onto the flop which is an interesting one

Villain (35bb) (UTG+1) limps
CO (55bb) limps
Button (55bb) limps
SB (70bb) minraises to 2BB
Hero (45bb) BB looks down at
UTG+1 reraises to 8BB
CO, Button, and SB fold
Hero calls

Flop (20 bb)
Hero?

 

[Legend5555]

Villain only has 27bb left. I can't imagine many hands that bet when checked to that fold if you check/jam. And what are going to do, check and call a half pot bet? Check call a jam?

I guess just open jamming is an option. But it looks weird, and an A never folds. You'd really just need looking to get KK or JJ to fold. I don't think you have any good options.

I'm not really sure what to do as I'm never in this weird of a spot to begin with.

 

[ChaosRock]

You got close to the flop you wanted but the A on the flop (if he has AA) might have ruined your plan.

If you believe he only has AA, then check/fold.

If you think there's a chance he also has AK, KK-, then it is a little closer and it would be hard to get away from the hand. Does he check behind here with KK short stacked? Does he stack off with KKs? If those hands are in his range, obviously, there's a lot more combos of those than of AA, which skews the equity closer to getting the right price.

The more certain you are he only has AA the more you fold (duh). The best case scenario for you is if he does the same play with all of his AA, KK, QQ and AK, in which case you're even money playing for stacks here. In other words, you're only even money in the best case scenario.

Given your initial read was he only does that with AA (assuming the A on the flop did not change your read), I check fold as I said

I know it is too face-up of a play but could you block the turn and get a fold from KK/QQ or is he shoving over you with those?

 

[Frogzilla]

My read of mostly AA but sometimes KK shifted a little when the flopped A killed half of those combos. Maybe 70/30 AA pre, now we are up against like 55/45 AA. Certainly not a flop we want to get it all in drawing behind if we can avoid. I elect to check.


Villain (35bb) (UTG+1) limps
CO (55bb) limps
Button (55bb) limps
SB (70bb) minraises to 2BB
Hero (45bb) BB looks down at
UTG+1 reraises to 8BB
CO, Button, and SB fold
Hero calls

Flop (20 bb)
Hero checks
Villain bets 2bb

 

[ChaosRock]

My read of mostly AA but sometimes KK shifted a little when the flopped A killed half of those combos. Maybe 70/30 AA pre, now we are up against like 55/45 AA. Certainly not a flop we want to get it all in drawing behind if we can avoid. I elect to check.


Villain (35bb) (UTG+1) limps
CO (55bb) limps
Button (55bb) limps
SB (70bb) minraises to 2BB
Hero (45bb) BB looks down at
UTG+1 reraises to 8BB
CO, Button, and SB fold
Hero calls

Flop (20 bb)
Hero checks
Villain bets 2bb

Fantastic outcome!

Clear call here.