PAHWM: Fast Fold 6 max ACR (1 Viewer)

[Legend5555]

No relevant reads. Most of the field opens for 2.2x - 2.5x. 3bet% is generally high, but not so much so that it seems odd.

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO?

 

[Eriks]

I would 4-bet or fold. I would mainly fold in these positions and look to 4-bet CO vs Btn instead

 

[Legend5555]

This is a spot where I will do a mix of all 3 things. Normally just fold, some 4bet bluffs, and some rare calls. Again, I don't study GTO. Everything I know about GTO is from things I've picked up watching vids. Which is a decent bit, and enough to understand some spots. But I don't spend time doing my own studying.

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO calls.

Pot: 16.5bb
Eff stack: 142.5bb

Flop:

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets 5.5bb.

HERO?

 

[Eriks]

Cool hand, not sure what to do. I kinda wanna just call. We are mostly looking to get value from his AK/AQ and maybe AJ/ATs. If he’s got exactly AxKs I guess he’ll go to war if we raise but we don’t really have any bluff raises and we’re gonna look strong if we raise here. We’re probably not calling KQo pre so we can’t have the nfd and we’re not gonna raise Ax so he might get away from the range we’re targeting if we raise. And he could 3-bet with flushes, KsXx, AAA and make it tough for us.

If I know villain is spewy I would raise though and hope to get 3-bet by AK/AQ.

 

[AR_poker]

No relevant reads. Most of the field opens for 2.2x - 2.5x. 3bet% is generally high, but not so much so that it seems odd.

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO?

This is a spot where I will do a mix of all 3 things. Normally just fold, some 4bet bluffs, and some rare calls. Again, I don't study GTO. Everything I know about GTO is from things I've picked up watching vids. Which is a decent bit, and enough to understand some spots. But I don't spend time doing my own studying.

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO calls.

Pot: 16.5bb
Eff stack: 142.5bb

Flop:

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets 5.5bb.

HERO?

Agree with @Eriks w/r/t 4bet or fold pre-flop being better, but I'm not gonna knock you really for flatting a suited wheel ace to what I'm assuming is a standard 3bet size. It's a hand with a lot of fun-EV. Would like to be a little deeper to start the hand (200bb+) if flatting to have more maneuverability post, but whatever.

On the flop, I'm calling. Happy to keep things manageable OOP with top 2 on a monotone flop and keep villain's whole c-betting range intact. Planning ahead, I've got a tentative inclination towards leading on non-broadway and non-spade turns. I expect lots of villain's pocket pairs with a spade to check back the turn, to fold to a river bet if unimproved when the turn goes check-check, and to check behind on the river when checked to. His AT+ might fire again on the turn, might check back, with or without a spade. He's got a lot more of those hands--pocket pair with a spade or top-pair-and-maybe-a-draw-maybe-not--than he does flopped flushes, and those hands could play perfectly against us moving forward and only put more money in when improved. I think a turn lead on those safe cards gives us the best chance to deny equity and get value from that range.

 

[boltonguy]

I like a 4bet pre or fold with A5s. Here i think you have to call or raise. He has flushes in range because KQs and KJs are probably in his 3! range but only 1/4 of those combos connect so more likely that you are good. I think it is likely that you are good here. He could have a bare Ks or Qs that could improve. How about raising here?

I would add that IP a 1/3 pot raise on a monotone board is GTO so his raise may not mean anything here.

 

[boltonguy]

Are you playing 10NL Blitz? If so what is your screen name? Mine is boltonguy.

 

[Frogzilla]

Feels like a good spot to check-raise and then blast off all the non-spade runouts

 

[Legend5555]

Are you playing 10NL Blitz? If so what is your screen name? Mine is boltonguy.

CRLegend5555

 

[boltonguy]

Havent seen you yet - hope to play some hands together!

 

[Legend5555]

The way I thought of this was that his 3bet range is probably like 88+, KQs+, AJ+, maybe KJs and some occasional suited connectors given the configuration. So I basically feel like I have the nuts unless he has or . I figure there are plenty of Ax with a spade that will call. And even most Ax no spade can't fold for one raise. Most of the pair plus spade aren't folding either. From his POV, I shouldn't have much 2 pair and I may not always have 22 or 55 as those aren't always opened in EP. And any of his junk is just folding anyway. If I just call, I'm OOP and it's annoying to play a 4th spade. So...

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO calls.

Pot: 16.5bb
Eff stack: 142.5bb

Flop:

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets 5.5bb.
HERO raises 18.5bb.
VILLAIN calls.

Pot: 53.5bb
Eff stack: 124bb

Turn:

HERO?

 

[boltonguy]

If he called with AJ
I'm checking here and calling depending on V's bet size
Or so I tell myself. In the moment I might barrel again which would possibly be suicide.

 

[arch3r]

The should change nothing. If you were good, you still are. If he called with AJ or spades, then oh well, that is poker. Why call his flop raise, to boat mine? If you thought it was good to call flop raise, then, the turn makes it good to lead.

I'm betting 1/2 pot on the turn, leaving ~100bb for a pot size river jam as long as the board does not pair and a spade does not hit.

 

[AR_poker]

The way I thought of this was that his 3bet range is probably like 88+, KQs+, AJ+, maybe KJs and some occasional suited connectors given the configuration. So I basically feel like I have the nuts unless he has or . I figure there are plenty of Ax with a spade that will call. And even most Ax no spade can't fold for one raise. Most of the pair plus spade aren't folding either. From his POV, I shouldn't have much 2 pair and I may not always have 22 or 55 as those aren't always opened in EP. And any of his junk is just folding anyway. If I just call, I'm OOP and it's annoying to play a 4th spade. So...

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO calls.

Pot: 16.5bb
Eff stack: 142.5bb

Flop:

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets 5.5bb.
HERO raises 18.5bb.
VILLAIN calls.

Pot: 53.5bb
Eff stack: 124bb

Turn:

HERO?

With the x/r line, it looks like we're targeting all of villain's pocket pairs and Ax for value, and I'm happy to not face a flop 3bet. Through this line, I think we have to continue on the turn. Sure, we're now behind villain's AcJc (only possible AJ-suited combo), JsJc, and JsJh (maybe villain calls JhJc, maybe not), and we're still behind villain's flopped flushes (a max of like ~10 reasonable flushes? 87 suited up through KQs, with lots of the flushes being incentivized to 3bet the flop to protect against our Ks, Qs, or Js hands and get value from our sets and 2 pairs before an action-killing fourth spade rolls off or the board pairs, and I'm sure you're not giving villain full combos for all those flush possibilities) or the one combo of AA, but that's not the majority of villain's range. Villain's target range likely still has 8 combos each of AK and AQ, 2 combos of AT-suited, 3 combos each of KsKx and QsQx that we want to target for value, put to a decision, and charge for the river. The thing I don't like about checking is that this line seems aimed at putting lots of pressure on the target range, much of which should happily check behind on the turn in this line. I also don't think much of that target range wants to raise through this line. If we're gonna let that target range see the river for free when only ~3 hands in villain's range improved, then I guess I just want to know a little more about what the flop raise accomplishes.

As far as sizing, I'm thinking ~30 BBs as kind of a catch-all size for our flopped flushes, our sets, and our two pairs, plus whatever hands we're using as bluffs (our medium-high pocket pairs with a spade in them, I guess?). There's no reason to polarize because I don't think we have much air or nut combos in this spot (nor does villain; in my experience monotone boards tend to be played pretty straightforwardly), and that leaves us with about .8 to 1 SPR on the river. If the fourth spade comes, sucks. If an offsuit K or Q comes, that's annoying. But I still think you rate to have the best hand the majority of the time here.

 

[boltonguy]

In case you are curious what Snowie says, I put it in a scenario for analysis. Now these decisions are based on Snowie's GTO ranges (which cannot be modified) which probably vary from the ACR player pool. This is what Snowie has for V's range:

Snowie does not like the call preflop, but does like the raise on the flop albeit at a slightly smaller size of 1/4 pot in place of Hero's 1/2 pot raise:

Snowie is indifferent between X and B on turn but chooses the smaller 1/4 pot size again:

 

[boltonguy]

At this stage of the hand this is Snowie's assessment of V's range:

 

[Legend5555]

What's so interesting about this hand is I know my call pre, even when I did it, is not great in a vacuum. But I think what's kind of interesting is that because I basically shouldn't ever be in this spot by GTO standards, it feels like I can sort of play my hand for max exploitation against my opponents range and give less weight to my range balance, since I basically have none. Against most low stakes players, GTO isn't super necessary. Though it's certainly a good baseline guide.

Edit: not that I have no range that plays this way. My point was more at these stakes, you don't have to be as concerned with your own range.

 

[boltonguy]

@Legend5555 I hope that you win this hand.
IMHO ACR is much tougher than Ignition and I often find that when the pots get big and V is showing strength they have it.

 

[Legend5555]

@Legend5555 I hope that you win this hand.
IMHO ACR is much tougher than Ignition and I often find that when the pots get big and V is showing strength they have it.

I'll finish it tomorrow.

 

[JustinInMN]

Cool hand so far.

My instinct nos the call preflop is fine in a shorthanded game with no reads.

You are seldom going to have 4-bet strength in this spot and I think it's nokay to defend your open widely against what often is a medium strength iso raise.

Good flop, I know a lot of player instinct is to protect against a spade, but I just don't think you can fold out a spade with 2 cards to come. I like the check call for pot control and plan to spring into action on a safe non-spade turn.

If he called with AJ
I'm checking here and calling depending on V's bet size
Or so I tell myself. In the moment I might barrel again which would possibly be suicide.

The should change nothing. If you were good, you still are. If he called with AJ or spades, then oh well, that is poker.

Absolutely with @arch3r on this. No reason to fear the jack any more than any other card. (Aside from a spade.) I would go for a substantial check raise to really put the test to the single spades, even the ace + single spade hands.

Be curious about what is next.

 

[Legend5555]

I'm not scared of this card. I still feel like I can get value from all his one spade hands and AQ+. Low pairs with spades probably fold now, which is why I think the raise in the flop is necessary. It's not that I'm trying to protect, but I'm trying to get value while those hands are more likely to peel. Basically, from his POV, he shouldn't be bet folding much of anything on the flop. If he was going to bet fold flop, then he should just check back instead.

One thing that is interesting, is that if he has the or , it ends up skewing me toward value. And I'm not going to have many off suit hands with to be bluffing with. But as I've said, going this deep is generally not necessary at the micros. So I'm really just playing his range more than mine.

I select a size that gives me just under a pot sized river jam.

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO calls.

Pot: 16.5bb
Eff stack: 142.5bb

Flop:

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets 5.5bb.
HERO raises 18.5bb.
VILLAIN calls.

Pot: 53.5bb
Eff stack: 124bb

Turn:

HERO bets 30bb.
Villain jams for 124bb.

Pot: 207.5bb
To call: 94bb

HERO?

 

[boltonguy]

Villain 3 bets pre. Villain calls your flop X/R. Villain jams turn over your turn bet.
IDK looks like villain is pretty darn strong here. I'd probably call although I dont like to admit it given how spewy I am with calls.
This looks a lot like a hand that I should fold.

I'll try to break this down - I could be wrong so feel free to correct me. I could never do this in 10 sec at Blitz/Zone.

On the flop V must be strong and calls with a high equity hand as it is unlikely that you have flopped a flush or she has flopped a flush.
What hands in her 3 bet range does V call the flop X/R with:
- flopped flush: (KQs, KJs)
- set: AA. I dont think 55 or 33 three bet pre.
- Premium pair with a spade: KxKs, QxQs, JxJs
- two pair, like Hero's holding: (A3s or A5s)
- top pair with a spade: (AxKs, AxQs, AxJs)

Does a flopped flush jam here in position? I dont think so. Better to call and hope that you continue to shovel money in on the river. Jamming afraid of the board pairing and Hero rivering a boat with a set doesnt make sense. So perhaps V is jamming here without a flush.

So what do they jam?
Beats hero: AA (1 combo) + AxJs (2 combos) + JxJs (2 combos) = 5 combos
Hero wins: KxKs (3 combos), QxQs (3 combos), A3 (2 combos), AxKs (2 combos), AxQs (2 combos) = 12 combos
Chop: A5s (2 combos)

Hero is 12:5 to win or 2.4:1 and pot odds are 207.5:94 or 2.1:1.
If you dont think V is jamming a flush here then it is borderline based on the odds, but you should probably fold.

Maybe adding the chop odds make this a call. Then we get 14:5 to win/chop which is just under 3:1 which is better than the pot odds presented.

Again any/all of this could be wrong.

 

[Frogzilla]

Seems like a baby flush trying to protect against Ks. In game I probably randomize, slightly weighted to call. 60% call 40% fold

 

[boltonguy]

@Frogzilla so like 67s or 78s spades? If you think V has a flush aren’t we beat? Why call if we’re beat?

 

[AR_poker]

I'm not scared of this card. I still feel like I can get value from all his one spade hands and AQ+. Low pairs with spades probably fold now, which is why I think the raise in the flop is necessary. It's not that I'm trying to protect, but I'm trying to get value while those hands are more likely to peel. Basically, from his POV, he shouldn't be bet folding much of anything on the flop. If he was going to bet fold flop, then he should just check back instead.

One thing that is interesting, is that if he has the or , it ends up skewing me toward value. And I'm not going to have many off suit hands with to be bluffing with. But as I've said, going this deep is generally not necessary at the micros. So I'm really just playing his range more than mine.

I select a size that gives me just under a pot sized river jam.

Eff stack: 150bb
6max
Fast Fold

HERO (UTG+1): raise 2.2bb w/
VILLAIN (UTG+2): 3bet to 7.5bb

Pot: 11.2bb
To call: 5.3bb

HERO calls.

Pot: 16.5bb
Eff stack: 142.5bb

Flop:

HERO checks.
VILLAIN bets 5.5bb.
HERO raises 18.5bb.
VILLAIN calls.

Pot: 53.5bb
Eff stack: 124bb

Turn:

HERO bets 30bb.
Villain jams for 124bb.

Pot: 207.5bb
To call: 94bb

HERO?

Does a flopped flush jam here in position? I dont think so. Better to call and hope that you continue to shovel money in on the river. Jamming afraid of the board pairing and Hero rivering a boat with a set doesnt make sense. So perhaps V is jamming here without a flush.

I think villain should absolutely be jamming flopped flushes here, but for a different reason: now is the time for villain to try to get value before an action-killing fourth spade rolls off on the river from (1) our two pair/sets with his flushes (nut flushes on down to baby flushes), AA, or JJ or (2) his nut flushes trying to overflush us. I don't think @Legend5555 has all that many flushes, as his analysis has suggested, so even villain's baby flushes (what's his babiest flush? 8s7s? 7s6s?), AA, and JsJx can jam pretty safely. I don't think villain should be worried about denying equity/getting sucked out on on the river, more so that now is his best chance to get paid and the stack depths/pot size allow this play in a way that the flop didn't. I know I said that villain's range doesn't have all that many flopped flushes on the previous streets, but the bet-call flop line and raise-jam turn line truncates that range significantly. A lot of other hands in villain's range should be falling out. I think with the turn price you're laying, KsKx and QsQx seem just so incentivized to call rather than turn themselves into bluffs, though maybe bluffing those hands is the correct play trying to fold out your non-two-pair/non-spade-draw AxXx. If villain does have KsKx or QsQx, I love this line from them, cause they've realized they don't have all that much showdown value and they're genuinely putting top-pair-plus to a hard decision. Similarly, AxKs and AxQs are might just call thinking that they already have the best hand or are chopping and free-rolling the spade. A5 or A3 suited from villain seems like a gross overplay, but who among us hasn't made gross overplays. And villain can always have just the most non-sensical air here, as many strategy threads here attest to.

I just think, on the whole, villain's hands that we were targeting through our flop x/r and turn continue aren't incentivized to take this line, and we're unusually likely to see AA, JsJx, and flopped flushes. I think all of those hands have to jam rather than call with the SPR. In my pool (which might differ from OP's!), turn raises are underbluffed spots, particularly in more straightforward situations like monotone flops IP. It's annoying that we're not gonna have all that many better hands to call with (a few flushes, 55, maybe 33 but I also might just fold that pre), and that irks me. I'm probably finding a fold here. But we're getting a good price and I don't think a call is a spew, provided you're calling because you think villain is capable of turning KsKx and QsQx (plus AxKs and AxQs as mergier/marginally-higher-equity versions) into bluffs at a high frequency.

 

[Eriks]

I think villain should absolutely be jamming flopped flushes here, but for a different reason: now is the time for villain to try to get value before an action-killing fourth spade rolls off on the river from (1) our two pair/sets with his flushes (nut flushes on down to baby flushes), AA, or JJ or (2) his nut flushes trying to overflush us. I don't think @Legend5555 has all that many flushes, as his analysis has suggested, so even villain's baby flushes (what's his babiest flush? 8s7s? 7s6s?), AA, and JsJx can jam pretty safely. I don't think villain should be worried about denying equity/getting sucked out on on the river, more so that now is his best chance to get paid and the stack depths/pot size allow this play in a way that the flop didn't. I know I said that villain's range doesn't have all that many flopped flushes on the previous streets, but the bet-call flop line and raise-jam turn line truncates that range significantly. A lot of other hands in villain's range should be falling out. I think with the turn price you're laying, KsKx and QsQx seem just so incentivized to call rather than turn themselves into bluffs, though maybe bluffing those hands is the correct play trying to fold out your non-two-pair/non-spade-draw AxXx. If villain does have KsKx or QsQx, I love this line from them, cause they've realized they don't have all that much showdown value and they're genuinely putting top-pair-plus to a hard decision. Similarly, AxKs and AxQs are might just call thinking that they already have the best hand or are chopping and free-rolling the spade. A5 or A3 suited from villain seems like a gross overplay, but who among us hasn't made gross overplays. And villain can always have just the most non-sensical air here, as many strategy threads here attest to.

I just think, on the whole, villain's hands that we were targeting through our flop x/r and turn continue aren't incentivized to take this line, and we're unusually likely to see AA, JsJx, and flopped flushes. I think all of those hands have to jam rather than call with the SPR. In my pool (which might differ from OP's!), turn raises are underbluffed spots, particularly in more straightforward situations like monotone flops IP. It's annoying that we're not gonna have all that many better hands to call with (a few flushes, 55, maybe 33 but I also might just fold that pre), and that irks me. I'm probably finding a fold here. But we're getting a good price and I don't think a call is a spew, provided you're calling because you think villain is capable of turning KsKx and QsQx (plus AxKs and AxQs as mergier/marginally-higher-equity versions) into bluffs at a high frequency.

+1, I like this reasoning a lot.

 

[Legend5555]

Conclusion...

I tanked (as much as you can in blitz) called. Villain has AJo, no spade. No 2 outer for me.

I was getting a decent price and had told myself I was likely going to have to call jams if I played this way. But I wasn't expecting a ton of jams.

I figured I was running into JJ with a spade or AJ if it's value. AA is just very unlikely, so I mostly discounted it. I thought there was some likelyhood villain would play AK with Ks this way since it shouldn't look like I have many flushes as the best I could really have is QJs if he has the Ks. I didn't think there were very many flushes for him as I think worst suited hand they play as a 3bet pre is JT, and I don't even think that's all that likely in the player pool.

You just don't have enough time on Blitz to really run through it all and count the combos. So I just used the shortcut of "people sometimes do weird stuff at the micros" in addition to my quick analysis above.

 

[boltonguy]

Wow AJo no spade calling your flop raise is just cray cray gambling. Sorry that you lost this one but thank you for sharing.

 

[AR_poker]

Conclusion...

I tanked (as much as you can in blitz) called. Villain has AJo, no spade. No 2 outer for me.

I was getting a decent price and had told myself I was likely going to have to call jams if I played this way. But I wasn't expecting a ton of jams.

I figured I was running into JJ with a spade or AJ if it's value. AA is just very unlikely, so I mostly discounted it. I thought there was some likelyhood villain would play AK with Ks this way since it shouldn't look like I have many flushes as the best I could really have is QJs if he has the Ks. I didn't think there were very many flushes for him as I think worst suited hand they play as a 3bet pre is JT, and I don't even think that's all that likely in the player pool.

You just don't have enough time on Blitz to really run through it all and count the combos. So I just used the shortcut of "people sometimes do weird stuff at the micros" in addition to my quick analysis above.

Rats. The shitty thing is your "people sometimes do weird stuff at the micros" shortcut was totally correct, it just meant seeing one of the very few hands that we're not expecting to see and that we lose to. Villain might spaz and do the same thing with AKo no spade or AQo no spade too, for all we know--impossible to know. Seems like you've got a good read on the meta of your pool. Once more unto the breach, dear friends.