PAHWM: Bovada .05/.10, AKo UTG (1 Viewer)

[BGinGA]

Villian's bet of 5 on the flop can't be that bad if hero is calling the turn with dry AK here.

Hero was the one betting $5 on the flop.

Correct. Hero is utg and bet the flop, Villain is on the button and called.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hero was the one betting $5 on the flop.

Correct. Hero is utg and bet the flop, Villain is on the button and called.

Thanks guys I did have that backward.

Okay so in that sense, getting called on the flop means villian just can't have air. If hero shoves for half pot it has to be to hope villian has AJ or QQ and is ready to part with it. (Maybe AT.)

Anything else of value is a set. Just because I wouldn't slow play a set here doesn't meant villian wouldn't.

I really think the fold equity is too slim, we bet the flop for information and we got it. Let's save what's left, next hand.

 

[ChaosRock]

If you're betting the flop, I think I'm good with the $5 bet given effective stacks are shallow at this point.

Now, on the turn, Villain will be facing a ½ pot shove. What are we hoping Villain to fold that beats Hero, 77, 99, AT, AJ and QQ? He might fold only the 77 in this spot, maybe AT. Regarding AJ, given stacks sizes when he calls the flop, I don't think he'll fold for ½ pot, same for QQ. Can he fold ? Probably not, right or wrong. And what is the hand we beat he's calling with? Maybe ?

I think I'm checking/folding...

* I agree with your comment about your way of balancing AK on the flop. I'm probably betting my KK and QQ and checking some of my AA and some of my AK. Oh I'm also betting a couple of my 4-bet bluffs as well.

** I don't think the pre-flop 4-bet shove with AK is bad in that spot at all. I think all options are very reasonable (4-bet, shove and call). I'm just not a fan of folding AK there (pre-flop).

 

[BGinGA]

What about other flush draws, Paulo ( , , , , )? Or even hands like , , , or with either two clubs or just one spade? No real reason to exclude any of those hands from his range, given the limited info we have (he did three-bet from the button, after all, and merely called Hero's 4-bet with position). I don't see any monsters hiding under the bed here -- I think it's a mistake to assume he has a pocket pair here, and assigning a very narrow range of button three-betting hands.

I really don't want to give him a free card if he checks back, and by Hero checking here, we're setting him up to make a great semi-bluff bet at us (that we can't call, even if we hold the best hand).


One of the reasons I like a smaller flop bet is that it keeps more chips back for Hero to make a turn shove, reducing Villain's pot odds to call. A larger 4-bet pre-flop also sets up a pot-size shove on the flop.

 

[JustinInMN]

What about other flush draws, Paulo ( , , , , )? Or even hands like , , , or with either two clubs or just one spade? No real reason to exclude any of those hands from his range, given the limited info we have (he did three-bet from the button, after all, and merely called Hero's 4-bet with position).

The op describes this player as relatively inactive for 45 minutes. That why I am assuming a much tighter range than this. Playing these hands as button flats instead of 3 bet preflop just better fits the image of a rather inactive player.

 

[BGinGA]

I dunno.... I've folded garbage hands for 45 minutes straight before, plenty of times. And if I wake up on the button with a squeeze opportunity with one of the above hands (or better), I'm jumping on it. And I'm a pretty tight player; certainly no LAG.

 

[v1pe]

I agree with @BGinGA - I prefer a larger 4bet pre and a smaller bet on the flop. I would be betting flop to try to get worse hands to fold and since villain doesn't have too many worse hands I don't think we need to go big. If we happen to spike the gutterball, or a non spade A or K, we still have an easy SPR to get stacks in (if we feel that's the right move).

Anyway, as played I'm probably going to just be giving up at this point. The turn is a total brick. I don't know what we are beating at this point except maybe a naked flush draw, but it's hard to give him too many of those.

 

[JustinInMN]

I dunno.... I've folded garbage hands for 45 minutes straight before, plenty of times. And if I wake up on the button with a squeeze opportunity with one of the above hands (or better), I'm jumping on it. And I'm a pretty tight player; certainly no LAG.

That might be what's happening here, but I am not flushing my stack to find out. But my range assumption informs my prefence for checking the flop as well.

 

[ChaosRock]

What about other flush draws, Paulo ( , , , , )? Or even hands like , , , or with either two clubs or just one spade? No real reason to exclude any of those hands from his range, given the limited info we have (he did three-bet from the button, after all, and merely called Hero's 4-bet with position). I don't see any monsters hiding under the bed here -- I think it's a mistake to assume he has a pocket pair here, and assigning a very narrow range of button three-betting hands.

I really don't want to give him a free card if he checks back, and by Hero checking here, we're setting him up to make a great semi-bluff bet at us (that we can't call, even if we hold the best hand).


One of the reasons I like a smaller flop bet is that it keeps more chips back for Hero to make a turn shove, reducing Villain's pot odds to call. A larger 4-bet pre-flop also sets up a pot-size shove on the flop.

I'm not considering most of the xtra combos you included in your post as part of his 3-bet/call range David. And I did include AT in his range but if it's Spades (and even if it's not) not sure villain would fold. The others hands seem to me a little out of his 3-bet/call range. If they were playing a lot deeper, yeah, maybe I'd consider those combos. And I agree that his 3-bet squeeze range is wider there but not necessarily his call range after UTG raise and 4-bet. Is it possible, yeah, I guess it is possible.

 

[ChaosRock]

What about other flush draws, Paulo ( , , , , )? Or even hands like , , , or with either two clubs or just one spade? No real reason to exclude any of those hands from his range, given the limited info we have (he did three-bet from the button, after all, and merely called Hero's 4-bet with position). I don't see any monsters hiding under the bed here -- I think it's a mistake to assume he has a pocket pair here, and assigning a very narrow range of button three-betting hands.

I really don't want to give him a free card if he checks back, and by Hero checking here, we're setting him up to make a great semi-bluff bet at us (that we can't call, even if we hold the best hand).


One of the reasons I like a smaller flop bet is that it keeps more chips back for Hero to make a turn shove, reducing Villain's pot odds to call. A larger 4-bet pre-flop also sets up a pot-size shove on the flop.

The other reason why I'm not a fond of widening Villain's 3-bet/call range there (specially with those combos) is because most of the combos you're assigning to Villain gets dominated too easily (or blocked for the streight) by UTG's 4-bet range. All the hands with an A or a K can get Villain in big trouble and cost him his stack..

 

[Schmendr1ck]

So in retrospect, I think I screwed this hand up in a few ways.

First, my preflop 3-bet was too small. If I'm raising there, it should have been $5 rather than $3.50. I also liked @DrStrange's idea of flatting to see if one of the short stacks gets froggy, then shoving over him.

Second, the flop is so much better for Villain's range than mine that I think a check-fold is the best line. A smaller bet (say $3.50) might be okay as well. Betting $5 is just pointless - he's not calling with worse except maybe the NFD, and a smaller bet gets him to fold the little bit of his range that is ahead but foldable.

Third, my action on the turn was total spew (and I knew it when I did it), but it was tired-and-don't-care-about-the-stakes tilt. Normally, I'm check-folding the turn 100% of the time.

Anyway, on to the results (which might be a bit surprising):

Preflop:
Hero (UTG, $18) raises to $0.25 with .
Three MP calls (all stacks are $3-6).
Villain (BTN, $20) 3bets to $1.25.
Blinds fold.
Hero raises to $3.25.
MP short stacks all fold, BTN calls.

Flop ($7.40):
Hero ($14.75) bets $5.00.
Villain (covers) thinks for a few seconds and calls.

Turn ($17.40):
Hero ($9.75) shoves for $9.75.
Villain snap-calls.

River blanks, and villain wins the pot with .
Hero goes to bed.

 

[v1pe]

Lol, this guy is waaaay wider than any of us were giving him credit for. I was assigning him a wider range than most and would never have put suited gappers in his 3bet squeeze range. A larger 4bet preflop might have gotten him off his hand, but maybe not.

Thanks for doing a PAHWM the right way...good discussion and insights that would not have occurred had we known the outcome.

 

[JustinInMN]

Lol, this guy is waaaay wider than any of us were giving him credit for. I was assigning him a wider range than most and would never have put suited gappers in his 3bet squeeze range. A larger 4bet preflop might have gotten him off his hand, but maybe not.

Thanks for doing a PAHWM the right way...good discussion and insights that would not have occurred had we known the outcome.

+1.

And wow, guess the rock isn't always a rock like @BGinGA was saying. T8 wasn't even on the radar, but you are right, even widening villian's range still doesn't help hero's shove.

But hey, spew happens to everyone, as long as you pay for this lesson less often than other people it's good, right?

 

[JustinInMN]

So as an afterthought how would seeing this data point change our strategy going forward.

Without this data point I was on flat pf (after being on 4-bet to 5 or 5.50), with this data point I say 4-bet to 6 all day , And I might even start 4-betting as wide as AQ or AJ.

I was on check flop and evaluate wheter to call based on sizing, with this data point I think that's still sound on this flop.

On the turn I think it might be possible to call more than zero, but I still dislike a shove even with knowing the hand.

 

[BGinGA]

Shove pre. If he wants to get it all in with T8 (or better) that's okay by me, and if I merely take down the $2 in folded bets as profit, that's okay too.

I just hate playing AK out of position. Unless you flop broadway, top set, or a boat, you never really know where you are in the hand.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Shove pre. If he wants to get it all in with T8 (or better) that's okay by me, and if I merely take down the $2 in folded bets as profit, that's okay too.

I just hate playing AK out of position. Unless you flop broadway, top set, or a boat, you never really know where you are in the hand.

Preach it.

 

[ChaosRock]

Thanks for facilitating the discussion Chris!

It would be interesting to find out if Villain would have called the 4-bet with the same hand had Hero bet at least $5. If Villain wants to pick a couple of combos to call light, I actually prefer his hand, than a hand like AT, although after the 4-bet stacks, were too shallow. T8s doesn't flop well frequently enough to warrant a call there imo.

As I mentioned, I don't mind the shove pre (neither do I mind the flat). My reasoning is a little bit different of Dave's. I want to try to fold some hands that I'm flipping with and maybe get called by hands like AQ. I don't love playing AK out of position, but I don't have a big problem with it also. Many, many times that's the case. You open AK on the HJ and get called by Button. I also disagree you're in a tough position if you flop either the A or the K. Worse position is hands like AT calling the 4-bet, even in position.

@v1pe : not only Villain put a one gapper SC on his 3-bet squeeze range, but also on his 3-bet/call range, LOL!! IMO, that's a bit much unless one is super deep or playing against a bad player, which Chris is certainly not, more like the opposite.

I'm curious @Schmendr1ck , were you planing on calling Villain's pre flop shove when you sized your 4-bet?

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Thanks for facilitating the discussion Chris!

It would be interesting to find out if Villain would have called the 4-bet with the same hand had Hero bet at least $5. If Villain wants to pick a couple of combos to call light, I actually prefer his hand, than a hand like AT, although after the 4-bet stacks, were too shallow. T8s doesn't flop well frequently enough to warrant a call there imo.

As I mentioned, I don't mind the shove pre (neither do I mind the flat). My reasoning is a little bit different of Dave's. I want to try to fold some hands that I'm flipping with and maybe get called by hands like AQ. I don't love playing AK out of position, but I don't have a big problem with it also. Many, many times that's the case. You open AK on the HJ and get called by Button. I also disagree you're in a tough position if you flop either the A or the K. Worse position is hands like AT calling the 4-bet, even in position.

@v1pe : not only Villain put a one gapper SC on his 3-bet squeeze range, but also on his 3-bet/call range, LOL!! IMO, that's a bit much unless one is super deep or playing against a bad player, which Chris is certainly not, more like the opposite.

I'm curious @Schmendr1ck , were you planing on calling Villain's pre flop shove when you sized your 4-bet?

Honestly I probably lay it down if he 5-bet shoves. Given what I'd seen of his play, I'd have him on a super tight range that crushes me, likely QQ+/AK.

And thanks for your opinion of my play. I knew that I could have played this hand better, and I was very surprised at what the villain showed up with, so I thought it would be a good one for discussion.