PAHWM: Bovada .05/.10, AKo UTG (1 Viewer)

Schmendr1ck

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I've been at this table about 45 minutes - there are four short stacks ($2.50-$5.00), three medium stacks ($8.00-$11.00) and two large stacks, me and the villain in this hand.

When I arrived, I immediately caught a few decent hands and doubled my $10 buy-in. Since then I've been pretty active - catching a good number of playable hands and being aggressive in LP. I've only shown down one junk hand (35o button steal gone good when I turned a wheel). My stack has ranged from a high of $26 to a low of $18 after a couple of big suited aces whiffed and got pushback in 3b pots.

The usual open at this table is $0.25-0.35 but sometimes goes as high as $0.50. Villain has not been very active and is largely unknown - he had a similar stack when I arrived, and has played a few small pots but nothing big and no showdowns.

Preflop:
Hero (UTG, $18) raises to $0.25 with :ah::kc:.
Three MP calls (all stacks are $3-6).
Villain (BTN, $20) 3bets to $1.25.
Blinds fold.
Hero???
 
Has hero played enough in the past for the regulars to have useful HUD stats?

Is hero playing more than one table?

Is Hero using a HUD?

I wouldn't fault a fold here. The ABC play is to 4-bet to $5ish ( $3.40 in the pot once Hero catches up ---> raise to $5 is a $3.75 raise. Large raise on purpose due to position problems.) Hero is going to hate a 5-bet - I'd be 4-bet / folding I think. Wouldn't be shocked to see a shorty or two stack off either.

Let's call this raise ~= fold > call. I lean fold but it seems close. I could be greatly swayed by useful HUD information.

Fancy play opportunity here. Flat the 3-bet and hope a short stack jams, thus getting a feel for button's next move.
 
I usually like to mix up my strategy here. Fold is absolutely out of the question. Against most players i balance raises and calls. Against super tight players OOP I will 4-bet more frequently and fold to 5 bets/jams. I do like to size up a bit in this spot and raise between $4-$5 so he doesn't have odds to just flat hands like 1010 and puts QQ and AK in a much tougher spot.
 
Has hero played enough in the past for the regulars to have useful HUD stats?

Is hero playing more than one table?

Is Hero using a HUD?

Players are anonymous on Bovada, and to my knowledge there are no HUDs available. If HUDs do exist, they would only be able to track stats over your current session.

Hero is only playing one table.
 
I can make a case for a call because of the preflop price and lower variance. It's 1 to win 2.60 you block the two hands that have you crushed. You can decide just to try and hit a pair and go with it. If you hit a pair you would rarely be behind. If you don't you can probably fold with confidence if your opponent bets.

I think if you think the villian is really as tight as QQ+, AK only then you can think about a fold. But I don't think you have the history to assume that.

Also factor in villian may be 3 betting light himself because of your active image.

That said, I think my standard is 4 bet big and try and leave a pot size bet for the flop, so 5-5.50 seems about right.
 
So just took a walk and I think I have talked myself into calling being the best choice against a tighter player. 1 to win 2.35, if we improve we will seldom be screwed. If we don't we can fold to agression. Maybe we will occasionally flop a two overs and gutshot or a flush draw which will enable
us to continue.

Just sucks being out of position, hard to get extra value unless we are against exactly AQ or aj from oop.
 
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Have you seen a squeeze from the villain before? Any 3bets? Any sort of aggression?

People are paying way less attention to your image than you think, and “playing back at you” way less than you think. If it’s a squeeze it’s because of the open and 3 calls, not really to pick on your 2.5bb open specifically.

I’m tempted to call for pot control OOP. Don’t hate the 4bet either. Where do you think you’ve got the best spot to take this pot away vs villain? 4bet now or donking on the flop?

If neither you could consider folding too.
 
Consensus seems to be balanced between flatting and raising to about $5 - about what I expected, so let's move on.

Hero decides to 4-bet, but his sizing is too small. Villain flats after the shorties go away.

Preflop:
Hero (UTG, $18) raises to $0.25 with :ah::kc:.
Three MP calls (all stacks are $3-6).
Villain (BTN, $20) 3bets to $1.25.
Blinds fold.
Hero raises to $3.25.
MP short stacks all fold, BTN calls.

Flop ($7.40): :js::tc::8s:
Hero ($14.75) ???
 
Have you seen a squeeze from the villain before? Any 3bets? Any sort of aggression?

Just a few standard pots where Villain raised pre, c-bet flop and took it down. No showdowns, and one or two instances of call-pre-and-fold-flop. He was definitely one of the less active players at the table.
 
Nasty wet flop. Probably going to down bet a bit here with overcards and gutterball to the nut straight. Something around $3.25 or 1/2 pot-ish is good I think. I would do the same with JJ/TT/QQ/KK/AA or AK/AQss. Giving up facing a raise and checking the turn if we don't pick up any equity. Sucks to blank this flop out of position in a 4bet pot.
 
What hands can hero put into villain's range that missed that flop?

AK missed, aside from AsKs. AT and KT. Pairs 77 and less. Maybe QT is a miss with 2nd pair plus gut shot. Lots and lots of LAGgy hands missed but it is hard to give much credit to such hands given our villain read.

AQ makes a double belly buster. KQ is a OESD. AJ / KJ = top pair/ good-great kicker. QJ is top pair plus gutterball. The pairs bigger than 77 make sets, pair plus OESD or over pairs.

Lets look at the list of hands and decide if an OOP c-bet is a good idea. Me? I vote check / fold. The SPR is two. villain should not be folding many hands that beat ace high. Lets limit the damage. Hero has punished the limpers enough.
 
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This is a problem flop with villian on such a tight range. If you think he's got pairs less than 77 or AQ, in his range I can see a c-bet. But I think hero's read is he's tighter than that so we need to check, we have no fold equity.

If villian checks behind, great. If he bets half pot or under I would consider a peel with a probable 10 out draw. If he bets more than half pot I think we give up.

Against a bluffy player I might consider check raise all in, but this flop is just so bad we can't expect to have fold equity.
 
I’d check fold the flop also. This flop is great for villains range
 
What hands can hero put into villain's range that missed that flop?

AK missed, aside from AsKs. AT and KT. Pairs 77 and less. Maybe QT is a miss with 2nd pair plus gut shot. Lots and lots of LAGgy hands missed but it is hard to give much credit to such hands given our villain read.

AQ makes a double belly buster. KQ is a OESD. AJ / KJ = top pair/ good-great kicker. QJ is top pair plus gutterball. The pairs bigger than 77 make sets, pair plus OESD or over pairs.

Lets look at the list of hands and decide if an OOP c-bet is a good idea. Me? I vote check / fold. The SPR is two. villain should not be folding many hands that beat ace high. Lets limit the damage. Hero has punished the limpers enough.

I'm okay with a check/fold, certainly the lower variance line. I'm just worried it turns our 4bet range face up and we give villain opportunity to bluff us off any equity we might have. We probably don't have to worry about being too exploited in this situation though.

I put villain on a range of something like 99+,ATs+,KQs,QJs,ATo+ against which we have ~40% equity. In reality he could be much much wider making a squeeze play on the button...but given our information we can't assume that. In a 4 bet pot in which we have the lead I think we can take it down with a small bet a decent amount of the time. If we get looked up and don't pick up equity I'm just giving up.
 
I'm okay with a check/fold, certainly the lower variance line. I'm just worried it turns our 4bet range face up and we give villain opportunity to bluff us off any equity we might have. We probably don't have to worry about being too exploited in this situation though.

I put villain on a range of something like 99+,ATs+,KQs,QJs,ATo+ against which we have ~40% equity. In reality he could be much much wider making a squeeze play on the button...but given our information we can't assume that. In a 4 bet pot in which we have the lead I think we can take it down with a small bet a decent amount of the time. If we get looked up and don't pick up equity I'm just giving up.

If you want to avoid turning your range face up I think you can also check with KK and even some AA combos here
 
If you want to avoid turning your range face up I think you can also check with KK and even some AA combos here
True, but I would prefer to bet all of my over pairs here for value and to protect my equity. I can't think of a value hand I would want to slow play on this board... Maybe JJ exclusively but I probably don't get here with that hand. For that reason I prefer a bet.
 
Jam pre-flop and avoid the messy out-of-position post-flop play decisions. :)
 
I put villain on a range of something like 99+,ATs+,KQs,QJs,ATo+

I think this range is a little too broad for a villian the op describes as inactive. I buy 99+ for pairs, but for unpaired hands we might be looking at only AK, maybe AQs.

I think anything weaker probably plays better as a call and seems to fit the strategy of a player described as not being too active.

I'm okay with a check/fold, certainly the lower variance line. I'm just worried it turns our 4bet range face up and we give villain opportunity to bluff us off any equity we might have.

I'm a little less worried about this as an exploitable fold because AK is probably the bottom of our pf four-betting range as hero. And villian is playing a little exploitable himself by having such a pair heavy range, and he has a clear range advantage on this flop.

But yes I get the concern that checking will backfire some of the time here when we have better holdings. I could see and argument for putting AA or JJ as a check raise all in hand for balance. If villian checks behind then we can evaluate the turn. Though I don't think villian has all that many straight or flush draws.

jam preflop usually means overbet ? No problem with that ?

I think @BGinGA is being a little facetious :).

But I think our stack is way too big to shove and we will never get called by AQ. But we might get like 99 and under to fold.
 
Villan's 4-bet call on that spot (because of the other 3 raise callers behind him) should be a touch wider than if it was just heads-up because of the amount of squeeze light he might be doing. Something like 99-QQ, AJ+, maybe KQ... Assuming that range, TT, JJ, QQ and AJ and pp beat us. I don't think AJ folds to a bet here... Neither do QQ and 99, maybe not even KQ... So what's left is AQ+, which would probably fold to a bet. Yeah, there might be a couple of airs but I don't think enough of them for us to try and push the action on the flop. The other side of the coin is that we have 4 outs to the nut straight and 6 more if Villain didn't flop a set. A check will most likely induce a bet, so it's close to giving up on the hand. I think at this point I'm check/folding. If checked behind, I'm inclined to check all turns as well and check call an A, K or Q)
 
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I think this range is a little too broad for a villian the op describes as inactive. I buy 99+ for pairs, but for unpaired hands we might be looking at only AK, maybe AQs.

I think anything weaker probably plays better as a call and seems to fit the strategy of a player described as not being too active.



I'm a little less worried about this as an exploitable fold because AK is probably the bottom of our pf four-betting range as hero. And villian is playing a little exploitable himself by having such a pair heavy range, and he has a clear range advantage on this flop.

But yes I get the concern that checking will backfire some of the time here when we have better holdings. I could see and argument for putting AA or JJ as a check raise all in hand for balance. If villian checks behind then we can evaluate the turn. Though I don't think villian has all that many straight or flush draws.

I don't think the range is unreasonable, yes we haven't seen him be very active but it's a pretty small sample size and with a raise and 2 calls in front this is a great BTN squeeze spot, and we've given him a pretty attractive price to call the 4bet in position. I do agree villain has a range advantage here, so perhaps that's a good case for a check/give-up when we whiff.

I agree that AKo is probably the bottom of our PF 4bet range in this spot (OOP with 2 left to act facing a 3bet after our UTG open). That's part of the reason I liked a cbet strategy on the flop. I want to take the same line I would take with a stronger hand and unless I have a really good reason I don't generally want to play out of flow. I think I would be betting the top of my range (AA, KK, AKss)...maybe my entire range here since my 4bet range in this spot is very tight.

Enjoying the discussion...I can certainly get behind a check/give-up line on this board...it just feels so exploitable and like we are giving up a pretty large slice of equity when we still have initiative. Spots like these in 3bet and 4bet flops are definitely not the strongest part of my game.
 
Great discussion so far. I'm reading but not commenting yet - I'd like to leave it open a bit longer before revealing the flop action.
 
I don't think the range is unreasonable, yes we haven't seen him be very active but it's a pretty small sample size and with a raise and 2 calls in front this is a great BTN squeeze spot, and we've given him a pretty attractive price to call the 4bet in position. I do agree villain has a range advantage here, so perhaps that's a good case for a check/give-up when we whiff.

The original post does say we've been playing for 45 minutes online, that's like almost 2 hours live. I think we can make some assumptions about 3 betting frequency. That said, I would concede it's always hard to get a sample size on squeezing situations, so he may well be looser than I am suggesting, but I think we'd have a description of a more frequent 3-better to match your range down to QJs and ATo. Which are both fine calling hands imo in a multi way pot.

All that said, because of the nature of this flop, it's hard to tell whether or not it's good for hero if the 3 better is looser than I suggest, because a lot of the hands beyond my rather tight range, still hit this board. And I think we're in agreement, bluffs are just so unlikely to get through here.

Enjoying the discussion...I can certainly get behind a check/give-up line on this board...it just feels so exploitable and like we are giving up a pretty large slice of equity when we still have initiative. Spots like these in 3bet and 4bet flops are definitely not the strongest part of my game.

This really is the important lesson about thinking in a GTO way. Whenever faced with a decision, don't just consider the current hand, but consider all the possible holdings in our range before acting. If we take a second to think about how we want to usually check AK here, and realizing we're betting everything else in our range we might remember to throw in a couple checks with other hands in this spot as well. Or hopefully if you end up in this spot with AA, you'll remember that you could have AK here too as well, and maybe you want to check AA this time to protect checking AK as well.

Or another way to balance this may be to divide the AK holdings. We check call when we flop the nut backdoor, and we pass on the others.

All that said, against opponents that aren't that active anyway (and frankly at this stake level), I worry less about GTO considerations since they are offering other avenues of exploitation. For example, I'm going to catch many flops where I'm going take this pot away from villian holding 99-JJ, AK even without improving, this particular flop is just so bad for that plan.
 
I really enjoyed this discussion, and there's a lot of good points made here both for check-folding and continuing.

I think in a live game or an online game where tracking and history would come into play, I like the idea of putting AA and maybe KK into my check-call range to protect my AK when I check it here. On Bovada, though, I don't think that's as effective since there is no history beyond what you've seen at the current table.

So on to flop action - Hero elects to continue:

Preflop:
Hero (UTG, $18) raises to $0.25 with :ah::kc:.
Three MP calls (all stacks are $3-6).
Villain (BTN, $20) 3bets to $1.25.
Blinds fold.
Hero raises to $3.25.
MP short stacks all fold, BTN calls.

Flop ($7.40): :js::tc::8s:
Hero ($14.75) bets $5.00.
Villain (covers) thinks for a few seconds and calls.

Turn ($17.40): :js::tc::8s::3h:
Hero ($9.75) ???
 
Rats I was hoping villian would underbet.

5 is too rich for a peel to me. If we had As maybe I could tip the scale to a call.

As played and catching a brick I think as hero we really are in check fold mode now. We really needed an AKQ to continue. If we had ::as:: there would've been other cards to catch on the turn to continue as well. But as dealt, we're given up that hypothetical hand as well.

If we luck out villian will check behind. (But I can only figure he would do that with AK or AQ at this point, I wouldn't expect it.)
 
Jamming pre-flop looking a little better now, with nearly half your stack already in the middle with two betting rounds remaining. Fuck it, get it in there now while you still have some fold equity.

Fwiw, I hate the pre-flop raise and the flop bet -- pre-flop re-raise was too small, and I think the $5 flop bet was too big.
 
I think with only half a pot in hero's stack and villian's presumed range there is almost no fold equity unless we are trying to fold out a chop or AQ.

Villian's bet of 5 on the flop can't be that bad if hero is calling the turn with dry AK here.
 

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