PAHWM: Big O cash game

MrCatPants

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Thought this was an interesting hand that would generate some discussion.

.25/.50 Big O (5 card Hi Lo) cash game online with my regular crew

Relevant players
($150) SB - Solid TAG, winningest long term player in the game
($150) BB - Hero - TAG image preflop, LAG image post flop
($80) MP - Old man coffee. Will sometimes call with the nuts just in case he is missing something.
($40) MP + 1 - moderate skills - chases weak draws and will donk bluff too often.
($90) Button - Fish who is only a few months into high low games - plays way too many hands, and will bet ace high flushes on paired boards.

MP, MP+1, Button, and SB call.

Hero looks down at :ac::ad::2s::qs::qd:

Action on hero.
 

MrCatPants

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First action I think here is pretty clear. Hero pots for $3.

25/.50 Big O (5 card Hi Lo) cash game online with my regular crew

Relevant players
($150) SB - Solid TAG, winningest long term player in the game
($150) BB - Hero - TAG image preflop, LAG image post flop
($80) MP - Old man coffee. Will sometimes call with the nuts just in case he is missing something.
($40) MP + 1 - moderate skills - chases weak draws and will donk bluff too often.
($90) Button - Fish who is only a few months into high low games - plays way too many hands, and will bet ace high flushes on paired boards.

MP, MP+1, Button, and SB call.

Hero looks down at :ac::ad::2s::qs::qd:

Hero pots to $3.

MP + 1, Button, Sb call. Pot is $15.

Flop is :td::4s::4h:

SB checks.

Action on hero.
 

MrCatPants

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Taking the action quick to get to the interesting decisions faster.

Hero checks. MP checks. Button bets half pot ($7). SB calls $7.

Action on hero.
 
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MrCatPants

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Again, just moving it along to get to the two more discussable decisions here.

25/.50 Big O (5 card Hi Lo) cash game online with my regular crew

Relevant players
($150) SB - Solid TAG, winningest long term player in the game
($150) BB - Hero - TAG image preflop, LAG image post flop
($90) Button - Fish who is only a few months into high low games - plays way too many hands, and will bet ace high flushes on paired boards.

MP, MP+1, Button, and SB call.

Hero looks down at :ac::ad::2s::qs::qd:

Hero pots to $3.

MP + 1, Button, Sb call. Pot is $15.

Flop is :td::4s::4h:

SB checks, Hero CHECKS, MP+1 checks, Button bets 1/2 pot - $7.

SB calls, Hero CALLS, MP+1 folds.

Pot $36.

Turn: :td::4s::4h::jd:

SB checks. Hero checks (this action is not debatable I think). Button again bets $7. SB calls. Action on hero ($7 bet, pot is $50)
 

DrStrange

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Hero needs to be mindful that he is drawing to one clean out for the royal flush, four "good" outs for over-full, and shabby "nut sucker flush" outs.

This is big O. Someone will have the full house pretty much every time the bets get big. Hero needs to have the ability to fold the ace high flush under stress in order to safely play on.

I don't think folding is that bad a decision, but calling and hoping to catch good seems like a better choice. The implied odds are pretty good.

Unless Hero is the sticky sort . . . . or unless someone is slow playing quads -=- DrStrange
 

FDLmold

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So everybody is sticking around for the high, but nobody is in love with their hand? I'm not buying it. It feels like button has a monster and that we are just feeding chips to their greedy stack.

I'm not folding for $7 though. Not when I can spike the diamond king for a surprise scoop, or an A or Q for an overfull that is only beaten by quads. I put no value into flush outs like the six of diamonds, but I don't need to to call here. Five outs is about 7-1 against, and those are the odds the pot is giving me.
 

Kain8

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His very small turn bet does give merit that he did flop quads. Button knows he can't have the flop checked through, but he can't bet too big to scare off his customers. Now with the low not able to come in, button bets very small again hoping to get check-raised.

Having said that, I'll pay 14% of the current pot every time with a royal draw. Let's drill it ONE TIME!
 

MrCatPants

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So I will say with the players, SB is definitely not a sucker and his calling both bets with actors behind is generally suspicious/strong. Button still has trouble properly valuing hands compared to the possibilities on the board.

To me the debate here was are my full house outs here clean or not. With the flop bet/call and turn bet/call by Button and sb I was thinking both may have a 4 versus someone having quads. I mean if someone has quads, only 10 10 and maybe A A is giving them action? And I've got A A pretty blocked?

I do call. River coming below.
 

MrCatPants

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25/.50 Big O (5 card Hi Lo) cash game online with my regular crew

Relevant players
($150) SB - Solid TAG, winningest long term player in the game
($150) BB - Hero - TAG image preflop, LAG image post flop
($90) Button - Fish who is only a few months into high low games - plays way too many hands, and will bet ace high flushes on paired boards.

MP, MP+1, Button, and SB call.

Hero looks down at :ac::ad::2s::qs::qd:

Hero pots to $3.

MP + 1, Button, Sb call. Pot is $15.

Flop is :td::4s::4h:

SB checks, Hero CHECKS, MP+1 checks, Button bets 1/2 pot - $7.

SB calls, Hero CALLS, MP+1 folds.

Pot $36.

Turn: :td::4s::4h::jd:

SB checks. Hero checks (this action is not debatable I think). Button again bets $7. SB calls, Hero CALLS.

River is :td::4s::4h::jd::qh:

SB leads out for pot ($57). Action on hero.
 

Kain8

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1625498559245.png

The SB just decides to take the betting lead against two opponents? Why would he pot into two opponents with quads? Is he hoping to stack the button and sees you as a non-factor?

Too many questions and not enough answers.

The pot bet makes very little sense to me. A good value bet of 1/2 - 3/4 pot would be way more worrying to me in this pot. SB could have some combo that has both a 4 and the case Queen. Could even go further than that and he has something like Q-4-T-J-A, giving him all the blockers in the world to the overfulls. Or somewhere in between those two ranges.

No point in raising really, call and see what the button does. If he ships, action doesn't re-open and you're priced in to see the bad news.
 

MrCatPants

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Im going to share my mindset before the hand finishes playing out here. So I think the key question is...if someome has quads, what does the other person possibly have?

if button has quads what does sb have that they'd flat the flop and turn and jam river?

Or in the case of sb having quads, what does Button have that hed downbet the flop and turn? 10 10 or A A and that's it? But wouldn't most A A hands raise preflop and I have that mostly blocked?

SBs jam would either indicate quads (which again leaves Button with little that makes sense) or a boat with a quad blocker I would think?
 

Frogzilla

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Call, hope the button tags along. Obviously way too strong to fold and not sure what a raise really accomplishes, maybe get some thin value from SB JJ but I think more likely to get paid off by button here from your description
 

Rhodeman77

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TT is the most likely holding and is over valuing 4th nuts. 44 is always possible though and making quads is so rare that people don’t often think about how to get maximum value with the hand. If a call entices the Button to call with an under full of 4T, 4J, 4Q or even some weaker hands like AK or A4 to over call thinking your call means you can’t be very strong then I lean towards a call.

also Button could have the TT and SB has 4’s full and really got out of line. In which case you can expect a raise from Button and worst case a call.

I don’t think a raise will get and under full to call.

If button raises you have to pay off I feel. There are more combos of TT than 44.
 

MrCatPants

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So here is a question - and I pondered on this alot before acting. I decided that quads just didn't make sense here and if someone had quads so be it. (Button is a generally competent player and wouldn't make this pot sized move out of position with quads into multiple players, and also wouldn't make this move given the action without having quads blocked.)

Given I was pretty sure of the above- am I better off calling and hoping button comes along, or shoving to try to get SBs stack regardless of buttons future action?
 
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Kain8

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A flat call is virtually "risk free" because if the SB does show quads, money saved. It can entice the button to call off with an inferior boat as well.
 

Rhodeman77

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Damn, value lost. Most likely 1 if not both call a raise. Well played by Button to not put in a raise with 3rd nuts.
 

Rhodeman77

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This reminds me of a 3 handed PLO hand from my game a few years back. I flopped quads and we checked until the river. First player bet and I didn’t know if I should raise and risk chasing out the 3 player or call to entice an over call from a possible flush. I went with the raise and was lucky they both had the perfect hands to pay me off with.

6DAFC98D-5E23-4633-83E6-7628677C032D.jpeg


I think in your case if you had raised the Button could have found a fold but you definitely get paid off by the SB which would have made you an extra $40 or so?
 

MrCatPants

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Pretty crazy that
This reminds me of a 3 handed PLO hand from my game a few years back. I flopped quads and we checked until the river. First player bet and I didn’t know if I should raise and risk chasing out the 3 player or call to entice an over call from a possible flush. I went with the raise and was lucky they both had the perfect hands to pay me off with.

View attachment 731917

I think in your case if you had raised the Button could have found a fold but you definitely get paid off by the SB which would have made you an extra $40 or so?
Button has the world's tiniest fold button (player specific) here. Might have gotten both. I don't think he would have thought about having the 4 making his hand actually a more likely fold in this spot.

He should have folded as was with the 4. Only one player in front of him has a potentially worse full house. The other player though has to have j j or q q and have him beat.
 

FDLmold

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Looks like both opponents were looking for monsters under the bed (44) the whole way too. Lucky to hit our 5 outer and take it down. They both deserved to lose after their pusillanimous betting on the flop and turn.
 
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